Time to upgrade Winwick Junction?

[markymark2000]

This thread comes from many experiences of the TFW service sitting at Earlestown and becoming upwards of 5 minutes late due to the Avanti service from Scotland being late and the TFW service has to cross paths. This can and does later affect the Northern Leeds - Chester service.

Northern isn't as affected normally because of the generous timings, pathing allowances and general station dwell times. TFW though is probably around 1/2 the trips heading west are delayed somewhat by Avanti at Warrington.

One option could be to upgrade the 'Up Slow' to 80mph and make the line from Golborne could go straight into the 'Up Slow' line with the current 'up fast' then linking straight from the line from Earlestown (if that makes sense).
I know that services from Earlestown would still have to give way to Northbound Avanti services but they don't seem that bad compared to the south ones. At Warrington Bank Quay heading south, these services then would need to cross paths but this shouldn't be as bad as passengers are at the station and if it came to it, you can use the really slow lines via Walton Old Junction for Chester and then have the clear path for Avanti.

Services towards Earlestown always seem quite punctual because of the lines being separate and only 1 flat crossing which is at Acton Grange.

In my opinion, something needs to be done because as more and more services come onto the rail network, it will only hinder other services performance which is not good for anyone.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Realistically the only option is to make all lines bi-di in the area, focusing heavily on putting the 'slow' lines as the westerly pair, and 'fast' lines on the easterly pair. This would result in freight using the diveunder to/from Arpley and if going to/from Chester/Ellesmere Port; and upgrading the 'slow' (Chester) pair south of Warrington for the Anglo-Scots. You would then need to grade-separate south of Walton over the Ship Canal but that wouldn't be too difficult on appearances with a redundant track bed still there.

 

[markymark2000]

Realistically the only option is to make all lines bi-di in the area, focusing heavily on putting the 'slow' lines as the westerly pair, and 'fast' lines on the easterly pair. This would result in freight using the diveunder to/from Arpley and if going to/from Chester/Ellesmere Port; and upgrading the 'slow' (Chester) pair south of Warrington for the Anglo-Scots. You would then need to grade-separate south of Walton over the Ship Canal but that wouldn't be too difficult on appearances with a redundant track bed still there.

The main issues I would say is only Bank Quay to Winwick Junction. South of Bank Quay, even on the dual track, there are normally no issues. The line via Walton Old Junction is generally only used for services towards Chester and only if the Avanti needs a clear signals straight through (of course freight use the line as well)

 

[Bevan Price]

This thread comes from many experiences of the TFW service sitting at Earlestown and becoming upwards of 5 minutes late due to the Avanti service from Scotland being late and the TFW service has to cross paths. This can and does later affect the Northern Leeds - Chester service.

Northern isn't as affected normally because of the generous timings, pathing allowances and general station dwell times. TFW though is probably around 1/2 the trips heading west are delayed somewhat by Avanti at Warrington.

One option could be to upgrade the 'Up Slow' to 80mph and make the line from Golborne could go straight into the 'Up Slow' line with the current 'up fast' then linking straight from the line from Earlestown (if that makes sense).
I know that services from Earlestown would still have to give way to Northbound Avanti services but they don't seem that bad compared to the south ones. At Warrington Bank Quay heading south, these services then would need to cross paths but this shouldn't be as bad as passengers are at the station and if it came to it, you can use the really slow lines via Walton Old Junction for Chester and then have the clear path for Avanti.

Services towards Earlestown always seem quite punctual because of the lines being separate and only 1 flat crossing which is at Acton Grange.

In my opinion, something needs to be done because as more and more services come onto the rail network, it will only hinder other services performance which is not good for anyone.

There are a couple of snags about your suggestion for the "Up Slow" at Winwick Jn. The line is in fact reversible, and is used northbound by Warrington Bank Quay to Liverpool Lime St. services, this avoids the necessity for Liverpool to Bank Quay services to cross the entire network at the south end of Bank Quay station in order to reverse and return to Liverpool. They usually just reverse in Platform 1 at Bank Quay. Also, the "Up Slow" is also the access route for trains entering & leaving the Mail Terminal at Dallam. Ideally, however, perhaps they could increase the current slow line 50/60 mph limits to at least 75 mph .

 

[edwin_m]

There are a couple of snags about your suggestion for the "Up Slow" at Winwick Jn. The line is in fact reversible, and is used northbound by Warrington Bank Quay to Liverpool Lime St. services, this avoids the necessity for Liverpool to Bank Quay services to cross the entire network at the south end of Bank Quay station in order to reverse and return to Liverpool. They usually just reverse in Platform 1 at Bank Quay. Also, the "Up Slow" is also the access route for trains entering & leaving the Mail Terminal at Dallam. Ideally, however, perhaps they could increase the current slow line 50/60 mph limits to at least 75 mph .

Would be better if this facility existed on the Down Slow, then they wouldn't have to touch the Fasts anywhere.

 

[markymark2000]

There are a couple of snags about your suggestion for the "Up Slow" at Winwick Jn. The line is in fact reversible, and is used northbound by Warrington Bank Quay to Liverpool Lime St. services, this avoids the necessity for Liverpool to Bank Quay services to cross the entire network at the south end of Bank Quay station in order to reverse and return to Liverpool. They usually just reverse in Platform 1 at Bank Quay. Also, the "Up Slow" is also the access route for trains entering & leaving the Mail Terminal at Dallam. Ideally, however, perhaps they could increase the current slow line 50/60 mph limits to at least 75 mph .

The mail terminal is only a few tpd isn't it give or take so is that a big issue?

The Liverpools would have issues, I can see that now. I don't think a line speed increase on the 'slow' line would do too much without making it link into the line from Golborne before the line joins in from Earlestown. I say this because of the conflicts. The Avanti would still be pathed on the 'up fast' line and so the delay would still happen as the TFW would be waiting to cross onto the 'up slow'.
Increasing the line speed on the 'slow' line for the Avanti would ensure that there isn't as much time penalty as a result of making that the main route into Bank Quay.

 

[Bevan Price]

Would be better if this facility existed on the Down Slow, then they wouldn't have to touch the Fasts anywhere.

The Down Slow is currently not signalled for bidirectional movements between Winwick Jn. & Warrington. Southbound trains from Earlestown can only use the Up Slow or Fast lines.