The "Poo Poo Train"

[Steddenm]

Just seen this in First News (a children's newspaper) about a train being designed to run off human and food waste.

I'm not too sure if this is true or not.

Have a look at https://login.firstnews.co.uk/login...6ec8&eid=50ce7b30-8621-47f5-b174-42d9d95c44bf and enter FUNLOCKDOWN3 to view the copy.

Image above shows the front page of the First News Newspaper with the headline "Poo Poo Train" and a render of a mock up of said train.

 

[sciisfun]

the daily fail is covering it online as well
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...carded-food-introduced-Britains-railways.html

Amid plans to phase out dirty diesel engines, trains run on gas made from human and animal waste and discarded food could join the rolling stock of Britain's railways.

The 'BioUltra' railcar is the brainchild of a team of engineers led by the Worcester-based Ultra Light Rail Partners — and will be able to carry up to 120 passengers.

With a top speed of 50 mph, the 66 feet (20m) long car will turn biomethane gas into electrical power which will charge the train's batteries and drive its motors.

The development is being support by a £60,000 grant from Innovate UK, the Government's non-departmental research-funding agency.

This is the second such grant that the team have been awarded. The previous, for £350,000, was used to build a smaller, 60-person railcar earlier this year.

This demo 'mini train' — which was around 33 feet (10m) long and weighed some 12 tonnes — was put through its paces at Motorail’s Long Marston test facility in July.

In the wake of COVID-19, however, the new train will sport health features such as UV lighting, virus-killing copper surfaces, plastic shields and robust ventilation.

(edited to add picture after arguing with adblock)

 

[Logan Carroll]

Are we looking at a future where seal tight containers of human feces can be brought to a shop for money akin to old irn bru bottles?

 

[sciisfun]

Are we looking at a future where seal tight containers of human feces can be brought to a shop for money akin to old irn bru bottles?

or would it be an early morning collection by a couple of blokes with shovels?

 

[jopsuk]

a classic example of what Roger Ford dismisses as "bionic duckweed".

Is it possible to run a motor on methane? yes, but it's not ideal else it would be more common, given we've had a fairly plentiful supply of fairly cheap methane for decades. Will the motor in this demonstrator care if the methane is from the North Sea or a bio-waste reactor? probably not.

 

[Domh245]

It's an interesting concept, but is in effect just a different power source for an ULR vehicle. Could just as easily be batteries, hydrogen, or a diesel engine.

The antiviral features are something of a dystopian gimmick though :/

 

[matt_world2004]

Would the onboard toilets go directly into the fuel tank

 

[jfowkes]

Why does it need batteries as well as a methane tank? Seems like that just adds extra weight and reduces electrical efficiency.

 

[jopsuk]

Would the onboard toilets go directly into the fuel tank

no. The methane would be generated using reactors at sewage plants. Which is why I'm confident the engines (presumably turbines) would run equally well on north sea gas

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jan 2021 ==

Why does it need batteries as well as a methane tank? Seems like that just adds extra weight and reduces electrical efficiency.

it would need batteries if I'm right in my guess that they're using turbines, because turbines hate loads that vary quickly so you need the batteries to provide acceleration power.

This is just (literally) the current incarnation of Parry People Movers

 

[Domh245]

Why does it need batteries as well as a methane tank? Seems like that just adds extra weight and reduces electrical efficiency.

(As with hydrogen) the methane 'engines' would be unlikely to produce enough power for the peak demand, so you run them at a near constant rate to charge the batteries to ensure that you can supply the necessary power at the peak time. It also helps boost overall efficiency as you can start doing regenerative braking

 

[Pete_uk]

Are we looking at a future where seal tight containers of human feces can be brought to a shop for money akin to old irn bru bottles?

There are toilets that get rid of the water and the solid waste can be used or even sold as fertiliser.

 

[Spartacus]

At least the one in Mad Mad 3 ran on pig sh.... poo.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

View attachment 88436

Just seen this in First News (a children's newspaper) about a train being designed to run off human and food waste.

I'm not too sure if this is true or not.

Have a look at https://login.firstnews.co.uk/login...6ec8&eid=50ce7b30-8621-47f5-b174-42d9d95c44bf and enter FUNLOCKDOWN3 to view the copy.

I would not want to hazard a guess on the emissions....

 

[61653 HTAFC]

"We are sorry to announce that the 1430 service to Poole has been cancelled. This is due to a bout of severe constipation in the Fratton area."

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Will the "poo poo" train be stopping at Twyford...???

 

[Nottingham59]

Nearly all the local buses in Nottingham have been converted to LNG (Liquified Natural Gas) operation, and they run off biomethane, making the entire fleet carbon neutral. Here's one outside Nottingham station.



There's no reason that the same technology couldn't be used to decarbonize the trains, at least for local passnger units, but the railway is about two decades behind the curve, as usual.

(EDIT: Image credit: Wikimedia user Motacilla. Licence: CC BY-SA 4.0)

 

[dgl]

Well it solves the problem of CET tanks and them filling up thus rendering the toilet out order, just use train users ablutions to power the train!
I do wonder if there is anyway of using this "poo power" to maybe generate electricity in large amounts, thus removing the pollution at point of use. I wonder if then you could use said power via some sort of power collection system so that said trains could use the electricity to power electric motors to propel said train, I fully assume that this has been ruled out as unfeasible and that electric trains will be just a pipe dream and we won't ever see trains powered solely by electricity.
I have, however, heard of a local company called Brecknell Willis that believes that this electrical powering of trains is feasible but I think they are loonies.

 

[Trackman]

I think if it was advertised as a train that ran on human waste, people would smell things that aren't actually there!

 

[TRAX]

a classic example of what Roger Ford dismisses as "bionic duckweed".

Is it possible to run a motor on methane? yes, but it's not ideal else it would be more common, given we've had a fairly plentiful supply of fairly cheap methane for decades. Will the motor in this demonstrator care if the methane is from the North Sea or a bio-waste reactor? probably not.

It seems a lot of people here aren’t aware of biogas engines. They’ve existed for decades on buses and trucks, are quite popular and are meeting more and more success environmental reasons, and are standard four-stroke piston engines, usually derived from Diesel engines but with spark plugs as in petrol engines.

no. The methane would be generated using reactors at sewage plants. Which is why I'm confident the engines (presumably turbines) would run equally well on north sea gas

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jan 2021 ==


it would need batteries if I'm right in my guess that they're using turbines, because turbines hate loads that vary quickly so you need the batteries to provide acceleration power.

This is just (literally) the current incarnation of Parry People Movers

Nope, not necessarily turbines, more likely piston engines (see my paragraph above in this same message).

Nearly all the local buses in Nottingham have been converted to LNG (Liquified Natural Gas) operation, and they run off biomethane, making the entire fleet carbon neutral. Here's one outside Nottingham station.

View attachment 88484

There's no reason that the same technology couldn't be used to decarbonize the trains, at least for local passnger units, but the railway is about two decades behind the curve, as usual.

(EDIT: Image credit: Wikimedia user Motacilla. Licence: CC BY-SA 4.0)

Yes indeed, road transport has been using (more and more) gas engines for decades. Just a slight correction here, the Nottingham buses (and most gas buses and trucks) use CNG (Compressed Natural Gas), not LNG (Liquified Natural Gas). LPG (Liquified Petroleum Gas) used to be used quite a lot for road vehicles, but this fuel is now almost completely gone as CNG (and LNG, which is less popular for now) is pretty much preferred.

Also, one shouldn’t mix biogas with natural gas. These are two different things, with biogas being the greener one.

 

[Nottingham59]

one shouldn’t mix biogas with natural gas.

But they do. They're both methane. The NCT buses use methane taken from the normal gas main, which is matched by an equivalent volume of bio-methane injected into the national gas grid by their supplier.

The detail is given here: https://www.nctx.co.uk/gasbus

"Our supplier produces the bio-gas through anaerobic digestion and injects it into the national gas grid at the nearest point to production. We draw out an equivalent volume of gas from the nearest national gas grid point to our Parliament Street Garage, where it is compressed and stored until the bus is fuelled up each night."

And yes, the gas is Compressed, not liquified. Thanks for the correction.

 

[Richard Scott]

Well it solves the problem of CET tanks and them filling up thus rendering the toilet out order, just use train users ablutions to power the train!
I do wonder if there is anyway of using this "poo power" to maybe generate electricity in large amounts, thus removing the pollution at point of use. I wonder if then you could use said power via some sort of power collection system so that said trains could use the electricity to power electric motors to propel said train, I fully assume that this has been ruled out as unfeasible and that electric trains will be just a pipe dream and we won't ever see trains powered solely by electricity.
I have, however, heard of a local company called Brecknell Willis that believes that this electrical powering of trains is feasible but I think they are loonies.

Worked for a water company once and they used methane from sewage treatment to generate electricity, generated enough to run the plant but not really much more.

 

[DelW]

Worked for a water company once and they used methane from sewage treatment to generate electricity, generated enough to run the plant but not really much more.

Plenty of sewage treatment works (or strictly, sludge treatment works which deal with the solids output from the sewage works) have had CHP (combined heat and power) plants running on the biogas from their digesters for decades. They significantly cut the cost of running the works.

 

[paul1609]

I think if it was advertised as a train that ran on human waste, people would smell things that aren't actually there!

Secret trials have been going on on Virgin Voyagers since their introduction. That experiment hasn't attracted any adverse comments yet.

 

[Jozhua]

I have IBS, and knowing me when I get up around 7/8am, well let's just say most people would get to work in half the time. Especially if I can't get anything gluten free from a takeout place.

Plenty of sewage treatment works (or strictly, sludge treatment works which deal with the solids output from the sewage works) have had CHP (combined heat and power) plants running on the biogas from their digesters for decades. They significantly cut the cost of running the works.

You see, maybe I can feel good that at least in one respect, I'm probably quite productive to society.

Secret trials have been going on on Virgin Voyagers since their introduction. That experiment hasn't attracted any adverse comments yet.

HAHAHAHA. You see those involve attempting to sedate the passengers with bio-gas, so they don't realise how horriffic the rest of the train is.

 

[jopsuk]

It seems a lot of people here aren’t aware of biogas engines. They’ve existed for decades on buses and trucks, are quite popular and are meeting more and more success environmental reasons, and are standard four-stroke piston engines, usually derived from Diesel engines but with spark plugs as in petrol engines.

Fair enough. But CH4 is CH4 regardless of source (the difference between North Sea and biogas is impurities).

My main assessment is that there's nothing innovative here, really. And it is just Parry, disguised

 

[edwin_m]

Plenty of sewage treatment works (or strictly, sludge treatment works which deal with the solids output from the sewage works) have had CHP (combined heat and power) plants running on the biogas from their digesters for decades. They significantly cut the cost of running the works.

It's doubly good that this happens, because if the methane was released to atmosphere instead then the global heating effect would be much more than releasing the resulting CO2 after burning it. But I think that highlights that even if all sewage works capture it, the amount of biogas available isn't enough to make a major difference to the national carbon footprint.

 

[southern442]

"We are sorry to announce that the 1430 service to Poole has been cancelled. This is due to a bout of severe constipation in the Fratton area."

Very on-topic of you to use Poole in this example (given it's rather amusing station code).

 

[mark-h]

Food waste can also be used to generate biogas and compost however, as with the sewage works, most biodigester facilities have their own CHP plant and export the energy as electricity and heat rather than as gas. In terms of the total amount of gas produced it will be insignificant on a national scale although still has environmental benefits.