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The Douro meter gauge lines in Portugal

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markofealing

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CP is forced to be economically and financially viable, while at the same time has to answer to all the social and politic pressure imposed by the government, without a single penny in compensation: https://www.publico.pt/noticias/jornal/cp-declara-guerra-as-fardas-141226

So, reading between the lines of Google Translate, the military pay just 25% of the fare and the judges and prosecutors go free, the list seems endless of who gets discounts or special privileges! Presumably, CP and IP staff also go free.

So I guess that just leaves the 'working class' left to pay the full train fare. No wonder CP can't make any money! Even the Porto Metro has run at a permanent loss since it opened. Presumably, these social 'spongers' also get financial dispensation on the metro?

Not a very good advertisement for "socialism".
 
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Flying_Turtle

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The military ain t shocking (there is a long story behind that and they aren t that many... in the old days of compulsory conscription you d have 1 or 2 10 car suplementar night trains on friday nights on the North line and all the other night trains equally packed with 1/4 fare paying folks ).
Shocking is the fact that the Judicial system rides trains for free even if they aren t doing judicial work! Judges doing 200 miles daily on 1 st class of fast trains out of the public purse! Court workers using their pass to go to work also daily...
 

markofealing

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If this article is correct https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...bado-com-alternativas-ao-comboio/&prev=search , it would seem that Mirandela Metro ceased running in May due to CP failing to fund the 20,000 euros it needed a month to run the line.

Is anyone aware of any further developments since May 2016?

So now there is only one running meter gauge line left in Portugal, the Vouga Line. How long will it be before this final line is closed?
 

markofealing

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This is interesting:

https://www.facebook.com/movimentoc...604345745122/1088383624567185/?type=1&theater

Translation: May 21, 2016 - The day that will remain forever in the history of the Tua Line , thanks to the will , commitment and dedication of all our participants.

There were about 70 who wanted to " roll up their sleeves " and get this adventure for the sake of Tua Line and its people .

We have entered not only the line but also in history, to again offer the Tenements a small vehicle capable of transporting passengers, after all the civic work had during the morning.

We must continue this journey of struggle and real work " out of the facebook " to the people , the elected officials and the media . It must take the Tua Line further and do not forget that , beyond everything that is already a given, there is a whole region need good access and want to develop.

Thank you all! We are huge!
 

Giugiaro

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If this article is correct https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...bado-com-alternativas-ao-comboio/&prev=search , it would seem that Mirandela Metro ceased running in May due to CP failing to fund the 20,000 euros it needed a month to run the line.

Not exactly. The alternative service between Cachão and Tua (the section that will "sink" under water), which was served with a taxicab, has been ceased, which means that there is no more a regular connection between Tua (Douro Line) and Metro Mirandela between Cachão and Mirandela/Carvalhais. The population once served by the train is also left in isolation.
 

Giugiaro

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http://expresso.sapo.pt/economia/20...ustentavel-linha-do-Tua-finalmente-desativada

It also means that any involvement from CP on this line is to be immediately withdrawn.

The line is now open for unregulated exploration by an independent operator, according to the mobility project appointed during the launch of the dam's construction, which may decide to do it...

... or not.

In other words, if the new operator decides that it's best for the railway to be transformed into a busway, IP has to do such conversion in order to appeal to the OP's desire (That's why REFER was fused to EP to create IP!). The only thing that matters is that infrastructure and assets remain under IP's management.

Regular passenger service is also to be ceased, unless the local government decides to keep Metro de Mirandela, although at this time under the Mayors own risk and expenses.
 
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markofealing

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http://expresso.sapo.pt/economia/20...ustentavel-linha-do-Tua-finalmente-desativada

It also means that any involvement from CP on this line is to be immediately withdrawn.

In other words, if the new operator decides that it's best for the railway to be transformed into a busway....

I think that removing CP as an operator is actually a good thing as I don't believe they are capable for running a tourist or heritage railway. Their attempt to run a tourist train on the Douro line has been something of a failure.

CP have no interest in running meter gauge railways which are non-standard and do not integrate with the rest of the rail network. Likewise, IP are not interested in supporting a non-standard railway infrastructure.

As for a busway or other type of road transport, I doubt very much this would be attractive as the trackbed is not wide enough. A tramway, maybe but I doubt if it would be viable.

What could work would be if IP were to lease the infrastructure to either a private rail operator to run a tourist line or to a heritage railway trust or a combination of both.

Ideally, IP would not be involved in maintaining the infrastructure, and only act as a leaseholder for the trackbed. I feel that if IP insisted in maintaining the infrastructure, this would kill off a lot of interest.

The lease agreement (e.g. 100 year) could be of nominal value, but still give IP the right to run cables e.g. fibre optic, alongside the track as long as they did not affect the running of the railway. From IPs perspective this releases them from the burden of having to maintain an ageing railway infrastructure.This would keep the ownership with IP and give them access rights if they needed it in the future whilst making the infrastructure available to organisations more experienced in this sort of railway.

If the line reached Mirandela, it might be able tie in with the metro and allow metro railcars access to the line to provide a public transport service for locals, between tourist and heritage trains.

The point is that by opening the rail infrastructure to outsiders, it provides greater flexibility, and therefore a greater possibility of the line surviving.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Nice documentary from the BBC series Great Little Railways titled "The Land Beyond the Mountains" produced in 1983 travelling along the Sabor Line, five years before closure in 1988.

https://youtu.be/GPz0_MDRosU
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Some more on the Sabor Line:

Portuguese steam. Sabor line (Pocinho - Duas Igrejas) 1980.

https://youtu.be/1Hx5ShleDMU

"The most remote of the branch lines off the Douro Valley, this metre gauge line was one of the last to be built, and one of the first to close. The passenger services ceased shortly after these scenes were filmed in 1981, and the last freight ran in 1988."

Portuguese Steam. Mixto on the Sabor Line - Graham Mather.

https://youtu.be/Y6VAZv-JpCs

The late Graham Mather visited the Sabor line in northern Portugal in 1978, and was lucky to find the Pocinho turntable out of action, obliging the large and powerful 2-4-6-0 Mallet locomotive to work up the steeply-graded section to Moncorvo bunker first. This film follows a couple of mixed trains including a ride aboard ne of them, showcasing some of the beautiful scenery through which this line passes. The loco can be seen turning on the triangle at Carviçais, so that it can work chimney first for the rest of its journey. Another feature captured on this film was
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
if the new operator decides that i... not take you from A to B in a straight line.
 

70014IronDuke

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........

If we look at the UK railway scene in the last 50 years (some people have suggested Portugal's railways have been 50yrs behind the UK although I'm not too sure looking at recent developments), then we know it is not possible to run a steam railway in a rural location as a public commercial business.

Look at the Vale of Rheidol Light Railway http://www.rheidolrailway.co.uk/history.htm in North Wales, it was under constant threat of closure but by some miracle BR managed to keep it running unit it was privatised in 1989, fully intact where it became a tourist railway run mainly by volunteers.

The Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland Railways http://www.festrail.co.uk/about.htm, both were slate railways taking you from the dock side where the sate was loaded on to barges to one of the worlds largest slate quarries and a bleak and god forsaken destinations. The fate of the Ffestiniog line was nearly sealed ,when like at Tua, they built a dam which flooded the trackbed . However, they got round it with some ingenious engineering work (not sure if this is possible at Tua or how the engineering work was funded).

<snip repeat examples>

What do these Welsh narrow gauge railways, which all started out as industrial (slate) railways have in common with the meter gauge of the Douro Valley?

Yes, let's look indeed - at the WHOLE picture. And lets see what the do NOT have in common.

How did the Welsh preservation schemes develop? Because there was, behind the Cambrian mountains, a relatively rich country of 50 plus million people. What is the population of Portugal?

Right now, according to Wiki, it is 10.4m. And even now, even though I'm sure the country is far, far better off than in 1970, it's still not a rich EU member.

But, I suggest, there is an even more critical factor in all this.

And, 50 years ago, while one in every five schoolboys was a trainspotter in the UK, one in every one Portuguese schoolboy - when they weren't doing extra jobs to help the family eke out a living - was wondering how they could get out of military service fighting wars in Mozambique, Angola and P Guinea.

When you went to Portugal in those years, you saw precisely no natives on the tracks with cameras or spottin' books. Simply put, there was no significant railway enthusiast body in Portugal (as, indeed, in many other countries around the world).

Markofealing - I admire your enthusiasm, but you are being unrealistic comparing the Welsh NG railway preservation success with anything that can be achieved in Portugal.

The Portuguese enthusiast body has watched while these lines have been closing since the 1980s and what have they been able to do about this? Nothing, or almost nothing.

I would love to be proved wrong, i would be happy to see even one section of 10 km opened as a steam or diesel heritage railway. With a lot of coordinated effort, I can imagine this might be possible. But all the Douro Valley metre-gauge lines re-opened? Based on what has been achieved so far (forget the excuses) that is Pie in the Portuguese sky, I'm afraid.
 

markofealing

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How did the Welsh preservation schemes develop? Because there was, behind the Cambrian mountains, a relatively rich country of 50 plus million people. What is the population of Portugal?

Right now, according to Wiki, it is 10.4m. And even now, even though I'm sure the country is far, far better off than in 1970, it's still not a rich EU member.

The population of Wales is currently 3.06m, following through with your argument, they are further 47m across the border in Spain!

In 1951 Britain was NOT a rich country, rationing ended in 1954 and the country was still rebuilding it's infrastructure. Labour, money and resources were tied up.

The big issue which continues to to be the main difference between Portugal and Britain is the ownership of the infrastructure (trackbed, etc) and whether the government body responsible (IP) are willing to relinquish the maintenance of the infrastructure to a 3rd party.

To put it another way, if BR had not made the trackbed available for landowners to purchase after the railways closed since the 1960s, then it's very unlikely that we would have the number and variety of preserved railway heritage lines that we have in the UK today. We would probably be limited to working railway museums like Bressinghamhttp://www.bressingham.co.uk/home.aspx, which is where Portugal is at present!

Portuguese Railway Museums http://www.fmnf.pt/en/nucleos_museologicos. The enthusiasm is there, look at the Tua Line Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/movimentocivicopelalinhadotua/videos/vb.176604345745122/1087028668036014/?type=2&theater, the difference is that the population are somewhat handcuffed by politics.

The strategy would be to start small, with a heritage railway centre like Didcot with a simple running line. In a separate discussion I've had with Dr Dominic Fontana who has been involved with https://sites.google.com/site/foztuavale/, it would be feasible to open a heritage centre in Tua, with a running line up to the dam. In many respects this would be the 'seed' for private railway preservation in Portugal. Location is good, next to the mainline with interchange and a short trip up the Douro Valley. Rolling stock and infrastructure already exist, on site in various states of decay. Furthermore to quote Dominic ".....there are also significant collections which are not available to the public at present. In particular, there is a shed in the town of Bragança in which there are several of the original locomotives from the Tua line, along with carriages, wagons and other equipment. These are all in superb condition – complete and oiled but as they have not run for quite a number of years will need boiler overhauls if they are to be run under their own steam. The quality of this collection hugely exceeds anything that was available to British enthusiasts in the 1950s to the 1990s when they were establishing their heritage railway operations in Britain."

Until IP become open to the idea of letting others maintain the railway infrastructure on a non-commercial basis, I can't see a UK style railway centre or heritage railway happening in Portugal.

If this situation should change, I would like to thing that British enthusiasts would be willing to share their considerable experience and assist in the development of the first heritage centre/ railway in Portugal. After all, Tua is a great holiday location!

The future of heritage railways in Portugal is in the hands of the government and not the people.
 

markofealing

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From https://www.facebook.com/movimentocivicopelalinhadotua/?hc_ref=PAGES_TIMELINE&fref=nf

Google Translation of http://ondalivrefm.net/2016/09/09/a...parecidas-com-autocarros-do-que-com-comboios/ of the causes of the Tua train derailment in 2008 - basically poor track maintenance, and inappropriate matching of light weight carriage body (more tram than bus I would say) to a railway chassis which was not suitable for the route.

CP restructured the rolling stock of the Tua Line, "keeping the base" and putting on "much like structures buses than trains"
By: Free Wave · 09/09/2016 · 0 Comments
Local Information , Regional Information ·
Foz_Tua [1]

Professor Bragança Mário Vaz, who joined the team responsible for the expert to the accident of the Tua Line 2008 made a mortal victim and led to its closure, says that what caused the derailment was the mismatch between the rolling stock and the route and accuses the CP of lack of maintenance.

The lecturer of the Faculty of Engineering of Porto University and researcher of INEGI - Institute of Science and Innovation in Mechanical Engineering and Industrial Engineering, recalls the assessment that was at the time the request of the Ministry of Home Affairs and at the conditions of lack of maintenance was surprised did not happen a fatal accident before.

reduced 3

"At some point, decided to restructure the rolling stock, to adapt to the new day, maintaining that it was the basic structure, and putting up structures much more similar fiber buses than trains.

Created a mismatch between the suspensions of rolling stock and the suspension of the material and the railway route. Created situations to derailments.

The fact of operating at low speeds, worked as a guardian angel for a long time. "

For the specialist in mechanical engineering, was up capacity to evaluate the quality of service, however, this knowledge has never been used by the CP.

reduced 3

"We had in Portugal engineering available to assess the conditions of the line, as it turned out later during the investigation stage to assess the structure of the rolling stock, and whether it was or not compatible with that track.

However, the CP never resorted to such services, and was improvising here and there, until the accident happened.

At that time we were called, and what is realized that there had been a slouch for a long time. And the knowledge that the CP had, we could see in Bragança station, and staff, so-called "flight of bosses", who walked with a gauge, on foot, on the road to see if the distance between the rails remained . That ended, and continued to operate in a way almost no maintenance. "

The opinion of the teacher and researcher FEUP Mário Vaz, born in Bragança
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The future of heritage railways in Portugal is in the hands of the government and not the people.

I think this post on Facebook confirms what I said in my earlier post about the governments role https://www.facebook.com/movimentocivicopelalinhadotua/posts/1177046475700899:0

Google translation:

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XMOS Messrs,

According to the published in the Official Gazette on last August 30, 2016, the Council of Ministers decided to declassify the Tua Line of the National Railway Network, demoting once again its importance.

Throughout our history, the Tua Line was probably the rail link more "chacoteado" of the country, where he suffered a bit of everything. Contrary to what is stated on the Official Gazette, the link between Macedo de Cavaleiros and Bragança not ended in 1992, but in December 1991, when this section was left completely isolated from the network, since after the end of the section between Mirandela and Macedo de Knights.

It was, however, in 1992 the CP, a dubious legitimacy to act, came to Bragança and Macedo de Knights take the rolling stock there was. This survey was done in the dead of night, on the grounds that the material would need intervention, and is then seen cuts in local telecommunications. The event became known as "The Night of the robbery."

Already between 2007 and 2008, a railway infrastructure that in 120 years of existence had never given any major problems, suffering in just over a year, four serious accidents that resulted in fatalities. At the same time, the dam Tua "jumps out of paper" and becomes a reality.

With this barrage came the promises of development, prosperity, jobs and a brighter future. What never came, was a viable alternative, fast, cheap and PUBLIC for what had been stolen from the people, the Tua Line. Nevertheless there is a "mobility plan" that is perceived now, will move few people.

The section between Carvalhais and Bragança, there is much that is not part of the National Rail Network, being closed since 1992 and already disqualified. It's "logic" the declassification of the section between the wall of the dam of Foz Tua-and Brunheda, as this was the area to sink.

What is not understood at all is the declassification of the Tua line in the area to requalify (Brunheda - Cachão), or the section currently has rail service and is served by Mirandela Metro (Cachão - Carvalhais).

With this decision, the government pronounced in a clear and evident in relation to the Tua Line and its potential: ignoring it, forgetting it, and giving a final "blow" in the subject, which clearly says that is not interested in maintaining it, or to ensure the public rail service. In a more general way, which is back to note is a political oblivion with the District of Bragança, as has already happened in the mid 1990s when it closed about 250 kms Northeast Transmontano (Lines Corgo, Tua and Flavor).

Another thing that does not understand is the very characterization used by the Presidency of the Council of Ministers as regards the Tua Line, "useless" and "unsustainable" are some of the words used. From what we remember, the Mirandela Metro, which operates in only 16 kms from the Tua Line has consecutive profit for more than four years of activity.

Again, ignore the historical and cultural factor, ignores an entire tourism potential that was going to happen, and shoots up the responsibility into the hands of private that solely have profit interests (the limit serve customers, but not the semi-isolated populations of the villages which were served by rail).

That said,

The Mirandela Metro will continue to earn subsidies to operate the shuttle service until the Mobility Plan go?

The regional mayors were heard and agreed;

You have to say about this? They had counterparts? What transportation will be in the future, for the people?

The Tua Valley Regional Development Agency also agreed with the decision. What will they say about it?

With this downgrading, the people lose the right to public service. With this decision, the locals no longer be entitled to accessibility that have always had, over nearly 129 years, and now have to settle for tourism and private holding that will operate in the valley of Tua.

And the people, nothing can be said. The Government sold "our" Tua Line.
 

Mike Williams

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Just returned from a visit to the Linha de Tua. Most of the southern section through the gorge now submerged under water from the Chinese built dam at Foz-Tua. (Line closure by immersion - only been tried successfully once before, Ashover railway). On 28th July official decree removed the Linha de Tua line from the national rail network, effectively de-nationalizing it.

Extensive construction work at Brunheda station, where they are building a jetty to take the small cruise boats from Douro-Azul. Line north to Cachao now fully weedkilled and foliage cut back. Opening date given as March 2017. Line from Cachao to Mirandela still in regular use by Mirandela metro - 5 trains a day. This is well worth a visit in its own right.

Douro-Azul declined to restore one of the 0-4-4-0 mallet tanks which used to work the line in latter days, and have opted to have a completely new oil-fired steam locomotive built instead (At whose expense I wonder!). Both the steam locomotive, a supporting diesel locomotive and the rake of new carriages are supposedly being built in the UK, but nobody will say who by.

This will be the first tourist railway in Portugal. What a pity the same initiative could not be applied to the Vale do Vouga whilst it is still a complete operating system.
 
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duesselmartin

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Looking at CPs income, or lack of it, I am not surprised that a reaction to the 2008 and ongoing crisis, cutbacks had to take place. Compared to Greece, CP is holding up rather well I think.
 

markofealing

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Most of the southern section through the gorge now submerged under water from the Chinese built dam at Foz-Tua. (Line closure by immersion - only been tried successfully once before, Ashover railway).

Well let's hope that what remains of the Tua line follows along the footsteps of the Ashover Railway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashover_Light_Railway either as a Hertiage Railway Centre at Tua (where a regional museum is being built in the old goods sheds), so at least there is more than one reason to get off the train at Tua, even if you are not rail enthusiast.

Less likely, there is still a possibility of a heritage railway at the top end of the line, separate to the tourist railway and it's modern steam locomotive and rolling stock. Presumably by building a tourist railway (I'm trying hard to remove images of Disneyland type tourist trains from my mind and screaming kids) they are trying to follow a similar model to the Rockey Mountaineer tourist trains in Canada.

If the tourist line goes bust (quite possible), then at least there is some prospect of converting to a heritage line later, utilising the new infrastructure.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What a pity the same initiative could not be applied to the Vale do Vouga whilst it is still a complete operating system.

Agreed.
 

Mike Williams

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I don't understand the bit about a museum at Tua, the only original buildings are open-sided transit sheds. There is an modern open sided covered secure compound in which some metre-gauge items of rolling stock have been stored, which until recently included mallet E166, the last one to work on the line I believe. This has now been sold and departed to a society in france.

The line north of Carvalhais to Braganza was lifted many years ago. It never was cost-effective at the time it was closed, and would be even less so now with the large motorway infrastructure we have built for them in the area. This section also includes the Bom Jesus steel latticework viaduct which would be beyond the limitations of any Portuguese or even Uk based railway society to repair and I believe was one of the major factors in the lines closure.

At least this development is not being run by CP - be thankful for small mercies.
 
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