Thameslink trains becomming tired already?

[43066]

All the bright white plain/blank surfaces, the blue details, the cold light hue. It creates quite a clinical feel, they remind me of sitting in hospital waiting room. It's not at all 'cozy', you wouldn't want to spend all day sat on one reading for example. This is often done intentionally in some urban design to discourage waiting around, for example in train stations where you want people to move through quickly; I don't really see the design need for this on trains though, if this has been done intentionally then it's quite sadistic. The flip side of this is that it makes people feel like this isn't their home; and is therefore more 'game' to commit antisocial behaviour, such as litter, graffiti, etc.

I completely agree. The 700 interior has always struck me the same way; almost the train design equivalent of hostile architecture.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

There's been quite a lot of research into how environments affect perception and behaviour; it's significant, far more than the average person realises. I think the Thameslink Class 700 interiors are some of the worst on the network and encourage bad-behaviour due to their design.

All the bright white plain/blank surfaces, the blue details, the cold light hue. It creates quite a clinical feel, they remind me of sitting in hospital waiting room. It's not at all 'cozy', you wouldn't want to spend all day sat on one reading for example. This is often done intentionally in some urban design to discourage waiting around, for example in train stations where you want people to move through quickly; I don't really see the design need for this on trains though, if this has been done intentionally then it's quite sadistic. The flip side of this is that it makes people feel like this isn't their home; and is therefore more 'game' to commit antisocial behaviour, such as litter, graffiti, etc.

Compare this to the Elizabeth Line 345s. They're far warmer environments. The dark grey panels and the purple moquettes, the warmer light hue, and the colourful TfL advertising on the walls combine to create a much more welcoming environment. Unlike a hospital waiting room, it could be a modern library or a cool coffee shop. It's much 'nicer'. I'm sure most people would agree they'd far rather spend a day sat reading on a 345 than a 700. It almost feels a bit home-like. As a result it makes individuals much less likely to misuse the space.

I'd love to run an experiment and run both stock simultaneously on both lines and then compare the reports of littering/anti-social behaviour on both. I'd be very very surprised if the 700 didn't have statistically-significant higher levels.

I agree with absolutely everything in this post.

 

[bramling]

I completely agree. The 700 interior has always struck me the same way; almost the train design equivalent of hostile architecture.

Yes the toilets in particular feel like going in a lift in one of the (now demolished) blocks on the Ferrier Estate in Kidbrooke, and the rest of the train isn’t much better.

 

[jon0844]

The problem with this argument is that other trains running through the same areas - the 377s and the 465s - have nowhere near these problems and generally in my experience immaculate toilets. The 465s used to be terrible but since the PRM mods are generally in very decent nick. The problem with the 700s looks to me like a poor cleaning regime or surfaces which don’t lend themselves to be cleaned effectively - if you look at the images posted above they all look like an attempt has been made at cleaning them but just not a very effective one, making the situation worse.

I don't believe Siemens allow harsh chemicals to be used by anyone but themselves, which is why you see tags smeared around rather than cleaned off. The stuff used just isn't good enough.

And of course the poor attempts to clean aren't done by staff emptying bins and tables/seats on a train turnaround.

As said before, the policy now is to repaint the affected areas - but then that just means a new blank canvas to fill within days.

 

[D7666]

*APART* from the internal graffiti issue within 700s toilets, after my (so far) 99000 miles and 3906 journeys on 700s, I can only think of TWO examples of 700s in those travels with internal vandalism.

One was scratched windows ("dutch graffiti" I think they call it) the other was several broken seat back tables in one area (a single broken one you could put down to wear and tear; several would point to deliberate).

My point is I think people are exaggerating the extent of internal damage on 700s in traffic (and if they are out of traffic 99.999% of the people here will not have seen them) and castigating Siemens unecessarily.

Several 700s are 7 years old now; it is mid 2016 since they started public work. I can't think of other fleets where after 7 years without overhaul or refurblement things are in such good order. They are clean - not even grubby.

I do not disagree with some of the other matters raised, including deteriorating ride quality, but internal condition IMHO is very good.

 

[bramling]

*APART* from the internal graffiti issue within 700s toilets, after my (so far) 99000 miles and 3906 journeys on 700s, I can only think of TWO examples of 700s in those travels with internal vandalism.

One was scratched windows ("dutch graffiti" I think they call it) the other was several broken seat back tables in one area (a single broken one you could put down to wear and tear; several would point to deliberate).

My point is I think people are exaggerating the extent of internal damage on 700s in traffic (and if they are out of traffic 99.999% of the people here will not have seen them) and castigating Siemens unecessarily.

Several 700s are 7 years old now; it is mid 2016 since they started public work. I can't think of other fleets where after 7 years without overhaul or refurblement things are in such good order. They are clean - not even grubby.

I do not disagree with some of the other matters raised, including deteriorating ride quality, but internal condition IMHO is very good.

365s were always pretty neat and tidy. The worst seen was the carpet under the windows becoming tatty. To be fair, they didn’t do the rough routes which the 700s work.

 

[43066]

Yes the toilets in particular feel like going in a lift in one of the (now demolished) blocks on the Ferrier Estate in Kidbrooke, and the rest of the train isn’t much better.

Now that was truly grim! Thankfully I never had the “pleasure” of entering it but, from driving past it a few times, the estate had taken on a distinctly menacing quality as it emptied out before being demolished. The area is completely transformed now, of course, with new builds on the site of the old estate.

My point is I think people are exaggerating the extent of internal damage on 700s in traffic (and if they are out of traffic 99.999% of the people here will not have seen them) and castigating Siemens unecessarily.

I certainly wouldn’t castigate Siemens who simply built the train they were asked to! The (admittedly much newer) 707s show what could be done with essentially the same train interior, but a more thoughtful choice of internal colouring.

 

[bramling]

Now that was truly grim! Thankfully I never had the “pleasure” of entering it but, from driving past it a few times, the estate had taken on a distinctly menacing quality as it emptied out before being demolished. The area is completely transformed now, of course, with new builds on the site of the old estate.

Indeed. A ride in the lift inside Sala House on that estate in the mid 2000s was an unforgettable once-in-a-lifetime experience. A pity those who specified the class 700 toilets never had the experience, as it might have taught them a thing or two.

 

[jon0844]

My point is I think people are exaggerating the extent of internal damage on 700s in traffic (and if they are out of traffic 99.999% of the people here will not have seen them) and castigating Siemens unecessarily.

Nobody has said they're all that bad. It seems that GTR is trying to keep stock used for certain routes in those places, which is probably why some people are seeing the absolute worst examples on a regular basis. We've already established the problems are down to the train users, not Siemens, GTR or Churchill, but rather because of the leasing arrangements it isn't quite as simple to get them cleaned as other stock.

When it comes to the floor, seating and bins, the trains are cleaned regularly and usually start the day looking fine. To be honest, bar the graffiti, the toilets are usually clean too - with toilet paper, working water and hand drying facilities.

 

[Dima]

Hm… I use Thameslink for my daily commute (Sutton loop services) and I really cannot complain about it.

The interior is always clean in my experience. The only problem I notice regularly is the graffiti in the toilets, but even there it’s only an aesthetic issue, as the toilet equipment itself is clean and in working order. The graffiti there is a relatively recent issue - I don’t remember seeing much of it a year ago. I hope it will be fixed soon.

But anyway, I definitely don’t want close the toilets because of that. I don’t think that getting off the train at a station, using the facilities there and then taking the next train is an adequate alternative as many (most?) stations don’t have them, they may be far away from the platform and/or not accessible, the interval between trains warier a lot and in general it would be an extra faff and delays, especially if travelling with a baggage or/and in a group. To me, having an onboard toilet is a significant perk of travelling by Thameslink vs the Tube.

The exterior looks alright to me - an occasional graffiti may appear on it as well from time to time, but it’s promptly removed.

The ride smoothness is OK to me too - definitely much better than the Tube. I didn’t notice any degradation of it over the last year or two.

My main issue with the 700 stock is the “ironing board” seats with a tiny legroom, but it can be mitigated by travelling in a first class carriage, which is conveniently declassified on this route.

 

[Recessio]

There's been quite a lot of research into how environments affect perception and behaviour; it's significant, far more than the average person realises. I think the Thameslink Class 700 interiors are some of the worst on the network and encourage bad-behaviour due to their design.

All the bright white plain/blank surfaces, the blue details, the cold light hue. It creates quite a clinical feel, they remind me of sitting in hospital waiting room. It's not at all 'cozy', you wouldn't want to spend all day sat on one reading for example. This is often done intentionally in some urban design to discourage waiting around, for example in train stations where you want people to move through quickly; I don't really see the design need for this on trains though, if this has been done intentionally then it's quite sadistic. The flip side of this is that it makes people feel like this isn't their home; and is therefore more 'game' to commit antisocial behaviour, such as litter, graffiti, etc.

Compare this to the Elizabeth Line 345s. They're far warmer environments. The dark grey panels and the purple moquettes, the warmer light hue, and the colourful TfL advertising on the walls combine to create a much more welcoming environment. Unlike a hospital waiting room, it could be a modern library or a cool coffee shop. It's much 'nicer'. I'm sure most people would agree they'd far rather spend a day sat reading on a 345 than a 700. It almost feels a bit home-like. As a result it makes individuals much less likely to misuse the space.

I'd love to run an experiment and run both stock simultaneously on both lines and then compare the reports of littering/anti-social behaviour on both. I'd be very very surprised if the 700 didn't have statistically-significant higher levels.

Crossrail actually did a lot of design into lighting temperature/colour. The platforms and trains have warm lighting, while interconnecting corridors have cold lightning. It helps subconsciously guide people towards the train and prevents congregating/crowding in the rest of the station.

Sadly this lesson wasn't applied to the Class 700s which share the same aesthetic design and sterile cold feel as a dentist's chair. I'm no good at photoshop, but I'd be interested to see what the interior is like with a warmer colourscheme and lighting (something like London Overground) and how much of a difference that would make to people's behaviour.

I find that bar the graffiti in the toilets, the units seem to be holding up fine, and are superb in their job of hoovering up crowds of people and being fairly reliable despite their Intensive service. I wouldnt say they're seeming "tired" like clapped out ex-BR stock (c.f. Southeastern Metro rolling stock) , they just need a deep clean like any unit that's been in service a few years imo.