Thameslink Core Major Power Failure 28/8/25

[SteveHFC]

I understand why this is the most sensible service to take out first as its completely duplicated North of St Pancras by the 9Txx (Brighton-Bedford) it causes very little angst on that side.

It's not completely duplicated - the 9Rxx trains don't stop at West Hampstead Thameslink, and I agree with Bald Rick - it causes plenty of angst, particularly in the rush hour.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It's not completely duplicated - the 9Rxx trains don't stop at West Hampstead Thameslink, and I agree with Bald Rick - it causes plenty of angst, particularly in the rush hour.

Arghh didn't check that. Anyhow like the South side then just put an SSO on the 9T's when they remove it.

The point im trying to make badly by the looks of it is we all understand the service has to thinned if there is a capacity constraint from faults/incidents and there are solutions to cover that as on the South sie they do it regularly but not consistently is my real gripe. ie when you remove the 9Rs you automatically do x, y and z with other service groups.

 

[Minstral25]

It's not completely duplicated - the 9Rxx trains don't stop at West Hampstead Thameslink, and I agree with Bald Rick - it causes plenty of angst, particularly in the rush hour.

Coming from the 9R route south - wish it did, but to be fair changing at Farringdon for the next stopper isn't that bad

My service is provided by the 9Rxx's and is generally the first service to be culled from the timetable when there is any problem along its line of route and even when its not occasionally. I understand why this is the most sensible service to take out first as its completely duplicated North of St Pancras by the 9Txx (Brighton-Bedford) it causes very little angst on that side. However, on the South side the 9R doesn't have an entirely overlapping calling pattern but there is a ready made solution with putting stop orders on the 9Jxx (Horsham-Peterborough) services. This where the randomness comes in as to whether they do this or not they just aren't consistent.

The 9J's don't have enough turnround at Horsham to properly stop in both directions at the extra stations that completely lose service (i.e. Earlswood and Salford's) so often they end up going straight past. 9J's also miss Norwood Junction (and to a lesser extent South Croydon and Purley) which means some journeys are made quite complicated when the 9R's are cut.

The additional issue that when the 9R is cut often the 1R (VIC to REI) which runs much of the same route (ECR to RDH) is cut as well - meaning Redhill is reliant on 9J's which are fundamentally very unreliable anyway but especially in disruption.

Always feel the 9J's should be the ones cut (south of London) and the 9R's left intact (with possibly the 9T's cut in preference to 9R's if Bedford needs thinning)

 

[OneOfThe48]

the 9J's should be the ones cut (south of London) and the 9R's left intact

The 9Js provide the only (outside of the peak) service for Hitchin up to Peterborough. It’s important to protect that as much as possible - even cutting the 9J to KGX - Peterborough is difficult

with possibly the 9T's cut in preference to 9R's if Bedford needs thinning)

If they start cutting trains on the Brighton Main Line, the Gatwick Express is getting cut too, so cutting the 9T leaves just the 9S serving the busier route between London, Gatwick and Brighton. That suggestion does seem slightly ‘cut their trains not my trains’

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Coming from the 9R route south - wish it did, but to be fair changing at Farringdon for the next stopper isn't that bad

The 9J's don't have enough turnround at Horsham to properly stop in both directions at the extra stations that completely lose service (i.e. Earlswood and Salford's) so often they end up going straight past. 9J's also miss Norwood Junction (and to a lesser extent South Croydon and Purley) which means some journeys are made quite complicated when the 9R's are cut.

The additional issue that when the 9R is cut often the 1R (VIC to REI) which runs much of the same route (ECR to RDH) is cut as well - meaning Redhill is reliant on 9J's which are fundamentally very unreliable anyway but especially in disruption.

Always feel the 9J's should be the ones cut (south of London) and the 9R's left intact (with possibly the 9T's cut in preference to 9R's if Bedford needs thinning)

9Jxx have 15m turnaround at Horsham. Calling at Earlswood & Salfords adds 3m against a 9Rxx schedule but most of the time loadings are lightish so dwell time can be bettered. No need to stop at Sth Croydon or Purley as they have other alternatives.

Northbound can also accommodate those calls as there is 4m pathing allowance Croydon to Finsbury Pk but its marginal against other Southern services at Stoats Nest.

 

[Minstral25]

The 9Js provide the only (outside of the peak) service for Hitchin up to Peterborough. It’s important to protect that as much as possible - even cutting the 9J to KGX - Peterborough is difficult

The 9J's can still run on East Coast to Kings Cross, whereas South of River they have no turn back point as London Bridge is rarely used for 9J's

If they start cutting trains on the Brighton Main Line, the Gatwick Express is getting cut too, so cutting the 9T leaves just the 9S serving the busier route between London, Gatwick and Brighton. That suggestion does seem slightly ‘cut their trains not my trains’

No not just the 9S services but also the 1W services - appreciate they get cut along with the 1R's but at least there are lots of other services running London - Gatwick - Haywards Heath

Whereas when 9R's and 1R's there is only one service on the entire route via Redhill that is also very susceptible to delay especially in disruption (9J) - and it is a very busy route especially at peaks.

9Jxx have 15m turnaround at Horsham. Calling at Earlswood & Salfords adds 3m against a 9Rxx schedule but most of the time loadings are lightish so dwell time can be bettered. No need to stop at Sth Croydon or Purley as they have other alternatives.

Northbound can also accommodate those calls as there is 4m pathing allowance Croydon to Finsbury Pk but its marginal against other Southern services at Stoats Nest.

It's 4 mins northbound & 5 minutes Southbound so both directions as normally needed is 9 mins, meaning a sharp turnround of 6 minutes at Horsham. Yes, it does slightly vary through day. Generally, that means the set can only do one way and if it is a few minutes late they do not call. Often there has been over 2-hour gaps at the stations because 9J's cannot call. They do not seem to include pathing allowances as far as I am aware when making decisions like this.

On top of this 9J is seriously unreliable especially at the slightest sniff of disruption whereas the 9R when it runs tends to be more reliable.

 

[Surreytraveller]

The 9J's can still run on East Coast to Kings Cross, whereas South of River they have no turn back point as London Bridge is rarely used for 9J's

They can turn at London Bridge from the south just as easily as they can at Kings Cross from the north.
The main restriction is whether the driver is from the south of the Thames or the north.
A Peterborough driver won't be terminating a train at London Bridge to go back south, and likewise a Horsham driver isn't going to terminate at Kings Cross to go back north

 

[Minstral25]

They can turn at London Bridge from the south just as easily as they can at Kings Cross from the north.
The main restriction is whether the driver is from the south of the Thames or the north.
A Peterborough driver won't be terminating a train at London Bridge to go back south, and likewise a Horsham driver isn't going to terminate at Kings Cross to go back north

Technically yes but I've only personally seen a 9R do so - there is very little space in London Bridge, and you have to choose between the 5 (+1 peak) routes through the station from the South for the one spare platform in the terminus part. They can technically turn on P4/5 but again never seen the option used, as it takes 8-10 minutes to turn round so blocks station.

Thought the drivers still swap a lot at Finsbury Park.

 

[bramling]

They can turn at London Bridge from the south just as easily as they can at Kings Cross from the north.
The main restriction is whether the driver is from the south of the Thames or the north.
A Peterborough driver won't be terminating a train at London Bridge to go back south, and likewise a Horsham driver isn't going to terminate at Kings Cross to go back north

And this essentially seems to be the reason why Thameslink CANNOT handle disruption. Having the services crewed ends to ends introduces the problem as described above, whilst having crew changes at somewhere like Finsbury Park or in the core is too disruptive. So it’s lose either way.

I know it’s no different in principle to King’s Cross to Peterborough, but you’re massively extending the length of railway so increasing the likelihood of disruption occurring, and making the service harder to manage when it does.

Thameslink has never had a tagline or slogan, however if there was going to be one then how about “inherently unreliable” appearing on a TV add or something. Or, to quote someone who used to post here, how about “Thameslink - the “simple” railway”? So simple, that the preferred way of handling disruption is to put the train in depots and sidings for the rest of the day, turn off the departure screens at stations and hide the staff away behind closed doors.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Technically yes but I've only personally seen a 9R do so - there is very little space in London Bridge, and you have to choose between the 5 (+1 peak) routes through the station from the South for the one spare platform in the terminus part. They can technically turn on P4/5 but again never seen the option used, as it takes 8-10 minutes to turn round so blocks station.

Thought the drivers still swap a lot at Finsbury Park.

There are several options. You can terminate at London Bridge if the train is going to deoar again in a short space of time. There's more space at London Bridge than there is at Kings Cross - the Southern trains don't spend long before they go out again, unlike the LNERs at Kings Cross.
You can terminate at East Croydon, and go back south, or shunt via Norwood Turnback or Sussex Loop. There's Redhill, Gatwick, Three Bridges. Trains don't have to go to London before turning back.

 

[Surreytraveller]

And this essentially seems to be the reason why Thameslink CANNOT handle disruption. Having the services crewed ends to ends introduces the problem as described above, whilst having crew changes at somewhere like Finsbury Park or in the core is too disruptive. So it’s lose either way.

I know it’s no different in principle to King’s Cross to Peterborough, but you’re massively extending the length of railway so increasing the likelihood of disruption occurring, and making the service harder to manage when it does.

Thameslink has never had a tagline or slogan, however if there was going to be one then how about “inherently unreliable” appearing on a TV add or something. Or, to quote someone who used to post here, how about “Thameslink - the “simple” railway”? So simple, that the preferred way of handling disruption is to put the train in depots and sidings for the rest of the day, turn off the departure screens at stations and hide the staff away behind closed doors.

And there'll be certain times of the day when the majority of drivers on each side of the river are on the 'wrong' side. You'll find there's certain times of the day when its possible to start introducing a split service, and other times when it's impossible, simply because there are south drivers on the north, and north drivers on the south.
If you have driver changes mid route, the service will always fall apart at the first sign of trouble. At least if drivers are end to end the driver doesn't have a choice about being stuck, and you just have to wait for the next shift to book on to put a split service in

 

[Bikeman78]

They can turn at London Bridge from the south just as easily as they can at Kings Cross from the north.
The main restriction is whether the driver is from the south of the Thames or the north.
A Peterborough driver won't be terminating a train at London Bridge to go back south, and likewise a Horsham driver isn't going to terminate at Kings Cross to go back north

Do Horsham drivers even sign King's Cross? If not, that's the first problem.

 

[johncrossley]

No Thameslink trains to Horsham yet again this evening.