TFL Penalty fare - Failure to show railcard

[Crazy_Coffee]

Hi! I experienced the exact same thing last Sunday on the overground.
I showed my Oyster card and then they asked me to show my railcard.
As I bought a new phone one month ago, and I haven't taken or bought a train ticket during this month, I haven't logged in to the account with my railcard on the app at all. I asked for some time for me to log in. But the staff just didn't want to wait.

As soon as I went out my destination station, I logged in. And I immediately uploaded the screenshot of my railcard and oyster card to that appeal website. I just simply said that I have my Railcard, I just wasn't allowed to log in on the ride with terrible network.

Now it has been four days and there's not progress in the appeal process.
I am kinda worried if I put it in a too easy way.

I also want to express my anger on this unreasonable term - when I bought the railcard, I needed to find a staff of London Underground to help me link the railcard to my oyster card. There should already be information of me with my name and the valid dates (not sure about the photo). And the staff already checked my identity from the very beginning. Who would know that you need to show your railcard "as soon as being requested" for a tube ride? As everything has gone digital nowadays, it is very outdated to ask people to present physical things. What if my phone's battery died? They could have just had everything checked on their system. There are so many people who are not even paying the ticket, but the staff seem to target more on people who are following the rules and soft and willing to collaborate.

Anyway, hope that if we present the valid details of our railcard, they are able to cancel the penalty.

I definitely understand your frustration, but I can also see the logic behind it.

While the in person & staff assisted process of linking a Railcard to an Oyster card should make the system more secure, I can understand why checks are still necessary. There could be instances where someone links a Railcard to an Oyster card and then allows others to use the discounted fares.

That said, I think TfL could promote this requirement more clearly. I had a look around the TfL website and noticed that they do mention you should carry your Railcard with you at all times, but it’s only stated once at the very bottom of the page that covers national rail discounts. Ultimately this is my mistake and I accept that, but I will be unhappy if the appeal is rejected after the inspector giving me the penalty reassured me several times that it would definitely be appealed should I present a valid Railcard later.

 

[HateTfLO]

Hi, we generally ask that only one case is discussed in each thread to avoid confusion. Imo this message is fine as you aren’t asking for any help and are mostly just empathising with the OP - moderators may disagree though, this is just my opinion - but if you do want help from us or have further updates on your case please start your own thread.

If you could keep us updated on your case as it progresses that’d be really helpful so we can learn from it!

I do think that staff, when adding the railcard to your Oyster, should have to tell you that you must carry it at all times. I’ve done this process maybe 5 times, a couple for myself and a couple times helping other people with it, and have never been given this information though I am of course aware of it anyway.

Thank you I didn't know the thread role before. I will update on my case later when there is update.

I definitely agree that, the staff should have to tell me about it.

I have been in London for almost one and half a year and asking me to present my railcard on tubes has never happened to me. A great fact to learn.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Dec 2025 ==

I definitely understand your frustration, but I can also see the logic behind it.

While the in person & staff assisted process of linking a Railcard to an Oyster card should make the system more secure, I can understand why checks are still necessary. There could be instances where someone links a Railcard to an Oyster card and then allows others to use the discounted fares.

That said, I think TfL could promote this requirement more clearly. I had a look around the TfL website and noticed that they do mention you should carry your Railcard with you at all times, but it’s only stated once at the very bottom of the page that covers national rail discounts. Ultimately this is my mistake and I accept that, but I will be unhappy if the appeal is rejected after the inspector giving me the penalty reassured me several times that it would definitely be appealed should I present a valid Railcard later.

Yeah that's why I think if they have the name and the photo information linked to their system, it would be much easier for the staff to verify us instead of asking us to present the railcard.

I definitely agree with you. They should promote this more clearly. And I will also be unhappy because the inspector also reassured me that if I uploaded my valid railcard info onto that website, it would be fine. Good luck to us.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you I didn't know the thread role before. I will update on my case later when there is update.

I definitely agree that, the staff should have to tell me about it.

I have been in London for almost one and half a year and asking me to present my railcard on tubes has never happened to me. A great fact to learn.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Dec 2025 ==


Yeah that's why I think if they have the name and the photo information linked to their system, it would be much easier for the staff to verify us instead of asking us to present the railcard.

I definitely agree with you. They should promote this more clearly. And I will also be unhappy because the inspector also reassured me that if I uploaded my valid railcard info onto that website, it would be fine. Good luck to us.

It’s clearly stated that you must be able to present a railcard when requested either a physical or digital one. It’s on the railcard website. It’s not buried in t&c s though it’s in those too fwiw.

 

[Hadders]

I experienced the exact same thing last Sunday on the overground.

We normally only discuss one case in each thread but as you aren't asking for advice it easier to leave this here as I will answer some of the general points you raised below.

I showed my Oyster card and then they asked me to show my railcard.

During a ticket check if your Oyster card shows that a railcard discount has been applied then you will be asked to show the railcard. This is because you could lend your Oyster card to someone else or even get the railcard discount applied to more than one Oyster card and give that other card to someone else. The inspector needs to make sure that the person travelling is the person entitled to that discount.

As I bought a new phone one month ago, and I haven't taken or bought a train ticket during this month, I haven't logged in to the account with my railcard on the app at all.

You need to make sure that your railcard is accessible (whether it's a digital railcard on a phone or a physical card) before you start your journey.

I asked for some time for me to log in. But the staff just didn't want to wait.

The staff will have many tickets to wait, especially somewhere like Highbury & Islington where it can get very busy. They should wait a short amount of time but they cannot wait an indeterminate amount of time.

As soon as I went out my destination station, I logged in. And I immediately uploaded the screenshot of my railcard and oyster card to that appeal website. I just simply said that I have my Railcard, I just wasn't allowed to log in on the ride with terrible network.

That's sod's law! But you are right to appeal if the circumstances are as you describe.

Now it has been four days and there's not progress in the appeal process.

They have 21-days to decide an appeal.

I also want to express my anger on this unreasonable term - when I bought the railcard, I needed to find a staff of London Underground to help me link the railcard to my oyster card.

How do you think it should be done? A self service system would be ideal but there does need to be a check that the person having a railcard discount added to their Oyster card is the person entitled to the discount. Realistically that means having a member of staff physically checking (which is what happens with the Oyster card) or uploading the railcard details to a portal so it can be added (which is what happens with Thameslink's KeyGo system which takes a few days to be processed in my experience)

I also want to express my anger on this unreasonable term - when I bought the railcard, I needed to find a staff of London Underground to help me link the railcard to my oyster card. There should already be information of me with my name and the valid dates (not sure about the photo). And the staff already checked my identity from the very beginning. Who would know that you need to show your railcard "as soon as being requested" for a tube ride? As everything has gone digital nowadays, it is very outdated to ask people to present physical things. What if my phone's battery died? They could have just had everything checked on their system. There are so many people who are not even paying the ticket, but the staff seem to target more on people who are following the rules and soft and willing to collaborate.

During a ticket check the staff need to check that the person presenting a railcard discounted ticket is the person who is entitled to that discount. How is the inspector supposed to know that you haven't given your oyster card to a friend?

 

[z444z]

Putting all this discussion aside - OP where are you at with your appeal? Can you send a draft here for us to review or would you like someone to write one for you?

 

[KirkstallOne]

I'll admit this isn’t particularly reassuring, but it does seem like the penalty fare in that situation should have been cancelled or refunded. It’s also not with Oyster/TFL so I’m not sure if its directly comparable to my case.

Playing devil's advocate (as I agree it is ridiculous the PF appeal wasn't allowed) I can imagine the PF appeals service saying we can't possibly be expected to track how many times you have forgotten your rail card to enforce the 'once per 12 months' rule, therefore you have to claim it back from the ToC. Hopefully with Tfl this isn't an issue as I believe that at least the 2nd stage appeals process is done in house so it would seem absurd for one part of Tfl to reject it on the basis you should be claiming a refund from a different part.

 

[jackfifield]

Out of curiosity, I've noticed your penalty was issued at 17.22 on a Wednesday. Did you make any other journeys that day/hit the off-peak cap?

If not and it was just a single, and wasn't a journey from out of zone 1 in to zone 1 (which doesn't have an evening peak), wouldn't the journey have been charged as a peak single anyway with no Railcard discount?

You said you travelled from Stratford to Finsbury Park, so the evening peak does apply and there is no discount to Railcard users - it's a £3.50 single either way.

If so, my own thoughts are surely there is no loss to TfL at all as you've paid the full fare, regardless of whether there was any Railcard on the Oyster.

This is all speculation and not necessarily advice though, and there are a lot of caveats as listed! If you hit the off peak cap by starting your day's travel after the morning peak then that would have got a Railcard discount.

 

[Hadders]

Out of curiosity, I've noticed your penalty was issued at 17.22 on a Wednesday. Did you make any other journeys that day/hit the off-peak cap?

If not and it was just a single, and wasn't a journey from out of zone 1 in to zone 1 (which doesn't have an evening peak), wouldn't the journey have been charged as a peak single anyway with no Railcard discount?

You said you travelled from Stratford to Finsbury Park, so the evening peak does apply and there is no discount to Railcard users - it's a £3.50 single either way.

If so, my own thoughts are surely there is no loss to TfL at all as you've paid the full fare, regardless of whether there was any Railcard on the Oyster.

This is all speculation and not necessarily advice though, and there are a lot of caveats as listed! If you hit the off peak cap by starting your day's travel after the morning peak then that would have got a Railcard discount.

None of this is relevant.

What matters is whether or not the OP had a valid travel authority at the time they were inspected. As an Oyster card was being used it needed to be touched in (not in dispute) but as a railcard discount was loaded the OP needed to be able to show the railcard which they were unable to do.

Hitting a cap isn’t relevant.

 

[Crazy_Coffee]

Putting all this discussion aside - OP where are you at with your appeal? Can you send a draft here for us to review or would you like someone to write one for you?

This is my appeal statement so far. I hope to submit it by Sunday evening so there is still time to refine and rewrite it as needed. Any feedback anyone can give me is most welcome


"I am submitting this appeal on the basis that I held a valid 16-25 Railcard at the time of travel, which was correctly linked to my Oyster card, but was not available to be presented when requested.


The Railcard was valid on the date of travel and remains valid, meaning I met the eligibility requirements for the fare at the time of travel.


When the penalty fare was issued, the revenue inspector advised me that an appeal would be successful if I provided evidence of a valid Railcard. I am therefore submitting this appeal in line with that guidance and requesting that discretion be applied in accordance with the forgotten Railcard policy.

I request that the penalty fare be withdrawn on this basis."


While on the appeals site I did notice this guidance, and the section I have highlighted has me concerned. I am also unsure on if it is a good idea to name the specific regulation I am appealing under such as the forgotten railcard policy in the NRCOC.

 

[AlterEgo]

I know it has been said before but the policy is thay the Penalty Fare must be paid (as it is valid), and then a refund of that sought from the train company.

 

[Crazy_Coffee]

I know it has been said before but the policy is thay the Penalty Fare must be paid (as it is valid), and then a refund of that sought from the train company.

Does that imply I should not appeal and should instead try and request a refund after the penalty is paid?

 

[AlterEgo]

Does that imply I should not appeal and should instead try and request a refund after the penalty is paid?

It's what the policy says, yes. It is what you are contractually due. There is no actual harm in appealing, however.

 

[z444z]

It's what the policy says, yes. It is what you are contractually due. There is no actual harm in appealing, however.

We don’t know that TFL will be following the NRCoT policy though, even if they should be. There’s no harm in appealing and if anything might help the OP in delaying the payment past this time of year.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2025 ==

This is my appeal statement so far. I hope to submit it by Sunday evening so there is still time to refine and rewrite it as needed. Any feedback anyone can give me is most welcome


"I am submitting this appeal on the basis that I held a valid 16-25 Railcard at the time of travel, which was correctly linked to my Oyster card, but was not available to be presented when requested.


The Railcard was valid on the date of travel and remains valid, meaning I met the eligibility requirements for the fare at the time of travel.


When the penalty fare was issued, the revenue inspector advised me that an appeal would be successful if I provided evidence of a valid Railcard. I am therefore submitting this appeal in line with that guidance and requesting that discretion be applied in accordance with the forgotten Railcard policy.

I request that the penalty fare be withdrawn on this basis."


While on the appeals site I did notice this guidance, and the section I have highlighted has me concerned. I am also unsure on if it is a good idea to name the specific regulation I am appealing under such as the forgotten railcard policy in the NRCOC.

I think this could be improved, I’ll have a proper look at it later or tomorrow

 

[blimmo]

I know it has been said before but the policy is thay the Penalty Fare must be paid (as it is valid), and then a refund of that sought from the train company.

This is also what I thought but the link to the 16-25 railcard sure that @z444z posted explicitly says to appeal the penalty fare. Perhaps this is just a poorly written FAQ.

 

[z444z]

I’d suggest something like this:

I was issued a penalty fare, reference [INSERT REFERENCE], at Highbury & Islington on [INSERT DATE], having travelled by Overground from Stratford, because I was unable to present the railcard linked to my Oyster card when requested. The revenue inspector told me that if I had a valid railcard I should appeal and provide evidence of my railcard.

I am therefore writing to appeal the penalty fare under the forgotten railcard policy (condition 8.5 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel). Evidence of my railcard, valid at the time of travel, is attached.

 

[Crazy_Coffee]

Not sure if it changes anything but I did get a letter today that seems to name the specific Act the penalty is being issued under.

 

[Crazy_Coffee]

Quick update to round things off.

I submitted an appeal using the following message, kindly provided by @z444z

I was issued a penalty fare, reference [INSERT REFERENCE], at Highbury & Islington on [INSERT DATE], having travelled by Overground from Stratford, because I was unable to present the railcard linked to my Oyster card when requested. The revenue inspector told me that if I had a valid railcard I should appeal and provide evidence of my railcard.

I am therefore writing to appeal the penalty fare under the forgotten railcard policy (condition 8.5 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel). Evidence of my railcard, valid at the time of travel, is attached.

Yesterday I was asked to provide additional information (a copy of my Oyster travel history for the date in question), and a few hours ago today my appeal was approved!



Thank you so much to everyone who helped with advice and suggestions — this has been a genuinely interesting learning experience, and I’ve definitely learned my lesson. You’ll be hard-pressed to find me without my railcard in future!

Thanks again, and happy new year to all.

 

[z444z]

Great news! Unfortunate (for us at least!) that they haven’t said on what grounds the appeal was accepted, but still helpful for us to learn for next time. Thanks for the update

 

[Mattplans]

Something to note for future cases, is that despite the penalty being issued by a London Underground ticket inspector, this letter is references London Overground only. I think this answers the earlier concerns about whether they were considered to be on a National Rail or Underground service and which bylaw applies.

 

[lb001]

Something to note for future cases, is that despite the penalty being issued by a London Underground ticket inspector, this letter is references London Overground only. I think this answers the earlier concerns about whether they were considered to be on a National Rail or Underground service and which bylaw applies.

where does it say it was issued by LU revenue staff? just for context, this was a joint op and LO and LU were both there with BTP, but it doesn't say anywhere that it was issued by LU?

LU, LO, GTSEL, Buses, and i believe trams all use the same PF/set up as we all use the same apps, all go through ITAL and IRCAS has the revenue collection contract for PFs. i suspect the badge number will start with LO if OP will confirm? the 'line' option suggests that it was issued by LO though as that is not an option for LU staff on the app.

not saying the outcome would be any different here, though, but worth bearing in mind.

 

[Crazy_Coffee]

where does it say it was issued by LU revenue staff? just for context, this was a joint op and LO and LU were both there with BTP, but it doesn't say anywhere that it was issued by LU?

LU, LO, GTSEL, Buses, and i believe trams all use the same PF/set up as we all use the same apps, all go through ITAL and IRCAS has the revenue collection contract for PFs. i suspect the badge number will start with LO if OP will confirm? the 'line' option suggests that it was issued by LO though as that is not an option for LU staff on the app.

not saying the outcome would be any different here, though, but worth bearing in mind.

Can confirm the badge number did start with LO