TfL anti fare evasion effort intensifies

[pokemonsuper9]

On the latter point, I’m not so sure. To me 7% is a pretty high figure.

I'd imagine it would have about the same evasion rate as buses (if not a bit more), the pricing is the same, the only difference is tapping on before boarding instead of when boarding.

 

[Peter Sarf]

It's unwise to carry only one payment method as it can become a single point of failure in the event of an issue.

I normally carry at least one bank card in addition to my phone and I usually have a £10 or £20 bank note with me as well.

Same here. Well I don't use the mobile for financials but I have a debit card, credit card and cash. That is on top of the Oyster pre-pay that is now replaced with a freedom pass.

These are the hardest people to deal with. Without a heavy (and expensive) police presence, often you can't do anything. Even with that, you're probably just getting some false details. Hence you've got the railway throwing the book at people who let their railcard expire by a day or two, and others not paying sometimes with the blessing of rail staff (to avoid conflict).

I agree the worst "passengers" will be the hardest to deal with. Let them stick out like a sore thumb and then a concerted effort. It might be easier for staff if they are only trying to deny access to a lower number of evaders.

The system is reliant on that most people will do the right thing, and more cynically that very few can make the behavioural change from meek middle class commuter to thug. If fare evasion on Croydon Trams is only 7%, society is still very honest (or TfL believe their own hype).

I must admit I am not sure 7% evasion is good and I am not sure it is as low as that for trams !.

I will come unstuck one day because forgetting to touch the platform card reader is easier than forgetting to touch in as you get on the bus. With the bus the two actions are connected but with the tram one has to find the reader (usually hidden in the middle of a bunch of people) and get to it. There is a risk if one just makes the tram in time that you jump on and then hopefully realise your mistake. Also the screens of the readers are unreadable so no error message is going to be picked up.

Once what I saw was the trams destination was a conflict at Church Street where the route diverges it said West Croydon on the platform BUT Wimbledon inside the tram. There were people who got on quickly and went the wrong way and people who jumped off quickly when they could have stayed on - I went out to ask the driver. Some of the people dashing on and going the right way turned out to have forgotten to touch in, they touched in at the next stop. I think because they would use the bus if a tram had not suddenly been so imminent. You do not want to touch in with pre-pay if you are not going to use the tram !.

Interesting there is still confusion about the trams and Oyster. Only today I saw a couple at East Croydon rush back out of the station and across the tram tracks to the furthest tram stop to touch out !.

Some people think it is like the trains - but no harm done except these two did dash in front of an arriving tram !. It was noticeable !.

I could argue the tram method is a bit error prone but then it is like stations with no barrier. Except you do not have to bother when leaving the tram stop. Except when joining a tram at Wmbledon where you have to use the reader on the tram platform AFTER touching in upstairs (or coming in by train). Now that must be a can of worms - having a tram stop inside a railway station.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I think because they would use the bus if a tram had not suddenly been so imminent. You do not want to touch in with pre-pay if you are not going to use the tram !.

But if you would use a bus instead you only lose however many minutes it takes the bus to show up from your hopper fare.
Probably doesn't matter for many making journeys home.

 

[z444z]

It's unwise to carry only one payment method as it can become a single point of failure in the event of an issue.

I normally carry at least one bank card in addition to my phone and I usually have a £10 or £20 bank note with me as well.

I carry two bank cards as well as my phone. Can’t recall using either for a physical transaction in over a year.

 

[Peter Sarf]

But if you would use a bus instead you only lose however many minutes it takes the bus to show up from your hopper fare.
Probably doesn't matter for many making journeys home.

Actually I do not think people see it that way even if they should. It certainly is an issue if say ten minutes takes you over the hopper fare time limit.
I do see people not touching in at tram stops until the tram is opening its doors.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I do see people not touching in at tram stops until the tram is opening its doors.

When making a journey in London last year I did only tap into the tram as it approached because I'm not sure when you have to tap in by (is 5 minutes too far in advance?). I didn't want to risk it and I hit the bus/tram cap that day anyway.

 

[Peter Sarf]

When making a journey in London last year I did only tap into the tram as it approached because I'm not sure when you have to tap in by (is 5 minutes too far in advance?). I didn't want to risk it and I hit the bus/tram cap that day anyway.

I think you can tap in a long way in advance. Effectively within the hopper fare time limit - which is 60 minutes. The issue is that if you want to utilise the hopper fare for subsequent connections then time gets important. You have to START your last connection within 60 minutes of when you first touched a reader.

So for some people a tram Croydon to Wimbledon, Bus to Wimbledon Village or beyond and then another bus might might lead to needing to pay an extra £1.75 if delays occur on the tram or the first bus from Wimbledon. So touching in as late as possible is prudent. Now I am on a freedom pass I do not have to think about it !.

 

[Blaine]

I think the problem almost certainly is that the RIDs are not announcing themselves as a transport mode device. That is definitely not a good look.

Exactly this. If TfL want to accept Express Pay and Google Pay for Transport, then TfL RPIs should accept it by default.

 

[Starmill]

Exactly this. If TfL want to accept Express Pay and Google Pay for Transport, then TfL RPIs should accept it by default.

The way it was explained to me is that this is not permitted under the technical standard with "bus mode". Which is the reason for the very extensive discussion above.

Of course that could be incorrect or incomplete. There may be a solution which doesn't involve breaking the card scheme rules. I'm not a payments industry expert personally.

 

[35B]

The way it was explained to me is that this is not permitted under the technical standard with "bus mode". Which is the reason for the very extensive discussion above.

Of course that could be incorrect or incomplete. There may be a solution which doesn't involve breaking the card scheme rules. I'm not a payments industry expert personally.

If that explanation is correct, then the obligation is even more firmly on inspectors to understand the use case and know to be able to ask if a card on a payment wallet is presented, whether the traveller has "Express Mode" activated - not blame travellers for using the equipment that they have to purchase travel in accordance with the rules.

 

[Peter Sarf]

If that explanation is correct, then the obligation is even more firmly on inspectors to understand the use case and know to be able to ask if a card on a payment wallet is presented, whether the traveller has "Express Mode" activated - not blame travellers for using the equipment that they have to purchase travel in accordance with the rules.

I wonder if there will end up being a list as long as ones arm of questions the inspectors need to ask !.

Stepping back a little should the onus be on the person who chooses to use the technology to understand how it affects them ?.
It is a bit like me remembering if I used the wrong card for pre-pay (Oyster, credit or debit). Nowadays I have the freedom pass but I do sometimes have to take a young un with me !.

Overall I feel technology is getting too complicated leading to too many pit falls. But them I am old.

 

[MikeWh]

The way it was explained to me is that this is not permitted under the technical standard with "bus mode".

I'm not sure if there's a difference between bus mode and transit mode. My understanding is that transit mode is the thing which stops the possibility of a PIN being required. Surely everything connected with transit/transport should use the same mode?

 

[Starmill]

I'm not sure if there's a difference between bus mode and transit mode. My understanding is that transit mode is the thing which stops the possibility of a PIN being required. Surely everything connected with transit/transport should use the same mode?

Yes, it could be. I don't know.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Feb 2026 ==

If that explanation is correct, then the obligation is even more firmly on inspectors to understand the use case and know to be able to ask if a card on a payment wallet is presented, whether the traveller has "Express Mode" activated - not blame travellers for using the equipment that they have to purchase travel in accordance with the rules.

I suspect most of the inspectors don't even know that transit mode is a different thing, let alone anything more nuanced about the card scheme rules. Some of them seem to think that their new devices know if a card wasn't touched in for example, but unfortunately they don't. That could just be a myth they'd like the public to believe though, or it could be a fundamental misunderstanding.

 

[Blaine]

I'm not sure if there's a difference between bus mode and transit mode.

Correct - the issue is that the personal devices used by inspectors don't support transit mode, regardless of what mode they're set to.

If the devices are in bus mode, then in these edge cases with different default cards the device says the phone hasn't tapped in, make further enquiries. The bigger issue is if when it's in train / DLR mode, the device says thank you very much and TfL go on to debit £16 from the other card on the phone.

There's also the issue as to what happens when you travel with a very low (but not empty) battery - the inspectors' devices can't read your valid payment method.