Teesside Airport New Station

[mangyiscute]

Considering this is the rail forum, I have to say ideas of London flights are horrific - this is a distance that can be covered in 3 hours by train delivering you into central London with far far better environmental cost. Flights such as that should be completely banned, not being encouraged. If it was up to me, I'd ban the Aberdeen flight too.

 

[Acfb]

Considering this is the rail forum, I have to say ideas of London flights are horrific - this is a distance that can be covered in 3 hours by train delivering you into central London with far far better environmental cost. Flights such as that should be completely banned, not being encouraged. If it was up to me, I'd ban the Aberdeen flight too.

I assume Heathrow would be about connections but I agree yes, especially now the Elizabeth line has opened (despite its unreliability). The London City flight which started during COVID which the new Tory MPs took was even more absurd.

I'm also surprised the Aberdeen flight is still going (just for the oil traffic?).

 

[ainsworth74]

The state of the Echo in all this is shocking - the once great daily of the north, of campaigns, of change for the better, of doing and standing for the right thing and of social justice ( that's actual social justice not SJW that Tories wang on about) is nothing but a shell. It is awful.

The death of local media throughout the UK and other countries is faintly catastrophic to be quite honest. The lack of scrutiny of local politicians (of any party affiliation!) and local government is massive problem. Teesworks, finally, got national coverage because it is so bad but if you read Private Eye you'll see story after story of smaller scale issues that a vibrant local press might pick up and make noise about. The Local Democracy Reporting service funded by the BBC goes some way to redress the issue but it's usual one reporter who has to cover a huge patch. It's catastrophic what's happened to local media.

That's why I keep saying how important TPE links from the north east to Manchester Airport are - i KNOW the cognoscenti here don't like them but they are a massive success. There are plenty of people I know who only get the train when going to Manchester Airport.

Absolutely agreed.

You can only go to places beginning with A from Teesside: Aberdeen, Amsterdam and Alicante

( that's 3 x KLM, 1 x Loganair, 1 x Ryan Air per day - on a good day)

In fairness I THINK there were summer season charters to somewhere like Burgas (which lets the side down a bit on the "A" Front!) and in 2024 there are going to be summer TUI flights to Dalman. There is a flight to somewhere unpronounceable in Finland to see the northern lights which ends soon if it hasn't already. There is supposed to be a several times a week (March > Oct) flight to Majorca ( TUI/Ryan Bus) Summer season once a week to Corfu and a summer season once weekly to Jersey (don't know who will deliver that). There also seems to be an Iceland flight suggested.

I don't pay close attention but you're on the money broadly as far as I'm aware. It has it's year round services to the three A's (Alicante is a fairly new addition, it was just Aberdeen and Amsterdam for a while!). Then during the summer it has the usual sunshine destinations in and around Spain and the Med. I'll give Houchen some credit here, Peel had deliberately killed off those flights even though they actually were popular and made money for the airlines that flew them (TUI in particular) so he at least got out of the way to let them resume!

I've always thought that (blue circle) is the best location for Teesside Airport but I also agree that this Airport just isn't viable and the money best spent elsewhere.

You're probably right that it would be a better location but it makes no difference in terms of accessing the airport itself. The current site and that are almost the same distance from the front of the terminal building!

I'll miss the tiny turning circle in front of the station which was fun to navigate in the car I had at the time which had no power steering.

It's a dinky thing isn't it?

It was truly amazing how Loganair stopped flying that route the very second that Houchen stopped shoving cash in their direction.

Fancy that!

Our airport, with our population of 83,000, has had 650,000 passengers through the airport in 2023. It really is staggering just how bad Teesside Airport is.

It's almost as if Teesside is served by three much larger airports one around an hour away, another 90 minutes and the other two/three hours away. Something which doesn't apply to the Isle of Man

Considering this is the rail forum, I have to say ideas of London flights are horrific - this is a distance that can be covered in 3 hours by train delivering you into central London with far far better environmental cost. Flights such as that should be completely banned, not being encouraged. If it was up to me, I'd ban the Aberdeen flight too.

Oh I broadly agree on Heathrow, I'm sure it's useful for connections but Darlington to London isn't a long journey. I'm just amused it was re-introduced to much fanfair by the local Tories and then er, went away again because the money ran out. I would keep Aberdeen though, it's a long journey by train to get to Aberdeen.

I'm also surprised the Aberdeen flight is still going (just for the oil traffic?).

You assume correctly. Rig workers is the market there.

 

[mangyiscute]

I would keep Aberdeen though, it's a long journey by train to get to Aberdeen.

4.5 hours is not too long - same as London to Edinburgh, and if it was up to me I'd ban those flights too.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's almost as if Teesside is served by three much larger airports one around an hour away, another 90 minutes and the other two/three hours away. Something which doesn't apply to the Isle of Man

Isn’t it just.

I predict within ten years the whole estate will finally be given over to housing, with a shiny new access road and a shiny new railway station. Houchen will be long gone, his mates won’t be. Trebles all round.

I have to say ideas of London flights are horrific - this is a distance that can be covered in 3 hours by train delivering you into central London with far far better environmental cost

Fine if you’re going to London- and in reality people going to London will already be using LNER from Darlington or Northallerton. That’s why the flight was a commercial failure and needed shedloads of cash for Loganair to run it.

It’s not so fine if you’re connecting into long-haul flights though. With Loganair there’s code-sharing with BA and sometimes KLM, and interline agreements with plenty of other airlines. So using the flight protects you better in the event of problems. Truthfully, if I was on separate tickets I wouldn’t allow less than 5-6 hours to connect between plane and train in London as the cost of both are so high. I don’t have the money to buy a new train ticket of my plane is late and I certainly don’t have the money to buy a new long-haul plane ticket of my train is late.

Up the road at Newcastle, you’ll find a good 80%+ of people on the BA flights will be connecting at Heathrow for BA long haul.

In Teesside’s case you could well argue that the connections are better served with KLM through Amsterdam mind…

 

[Gaelan]

I don't pay close attention but you're on the money broadly as far as I'm aware. It has it's year round services to the three A's (Alicante is a fairly new addition, it was just Aberdeen and Amsterdam for a while!). Then during the summer it has the usual sunshine destinations in and around Spain and the Med. I'll give Houchen some credit here, Peel had deliberately killed off those flights even though they actually were popular and made money for the airlines that flew them (TUI in particular) so he at least got out of the way to let them resume!

According to the fantastic directflights.com:

• 3 fpd to Amsterdam, less on weekends
• 1 fpd to Aberdeen, except Saturdays
• 1 fpd to Alicante, Su/Mo/Th only

Then a 1-2 flights a week, summer months only, to Jersey, Kerkyra, Faro, and Palma de Mallorca.

With Loganair there’s code-sharing with BA and sometimes KLM, and interline agreements with plenty of other airlines. So using the flight protects you better in the event of problems.

Up the road at Newcastle, you’ll find a good 80%+ of people on the BA flights will be connecting at Heathrow for BA long haul.

You're right of course, but the fact that it's easier to run short-haul flights than to sort out integrated air/rail ticketing is horrifying.

 

[Tetchytyke]

You're right of course, but the fact that it's easier to run short-haul flights than to sort out integrated air/rail ticketing is horrifying.

Sums up the UK. Lufthansa manage it perfectly well in Germany- some trains even carry a Lufthansa flight number- but everything is so disjointed here it doesn’t work.

I’ll admit I’ve used the Newcastle BA flight a few times to connect onto long haul, much as I’d rather take the train. If the connecting train doesn’t run it’s my problem, if the connecting plane doesn’t run it’s BA’s problem.

The closest we have in the UK is the Airport Advance tickets that TPE offer. But even the briefest look at a split-ticketing website shows just how much of a hefty premium these tickets attract.

Probably veering off topic now though…

 

[edwin_m]

You're right of course, but the fact that it's easier to run short-haul flights than to sort out integrated air/rail ticketing is horrifying.

I think the issue is more that you need to allow 1.5hr from Kings Cross to Heathrow plus time allowance to get to the gate. This would still apply even with through ticketing and airline re-booking to a later flight if arriving late due to train delays.

 

[Chester1]

Sums up the UK. Lufthansa manage it perfectly well in Germany- some trains even carry a Lufthansa flight number- but everything is so disjointed here it doesn’t work.

I’ll admit I’ve used the Newcastle BA flight a few times to connect onto long haul, much as I’d rather take the train. If the connecting train doesn’t run it’s my problem, if the connecting plane doesn’t run it’s BA’s problem.

The closest we have in the UK is the Airport Advance tickets that TPE offer. But even the briefest look at a split-ticketing website shows just how much of a hefty premium these tickets attract.

Probably veering off topic now though…

Rail-flight tickets require suitable services and the biggest airport in the UK does not have long distance train services or the infrastructure to support them.

I wouldn't spend £20m of taxpayer money on a new station but the airport provides a useful connection for long haul journeys. If the airport can limp on with low or no taxpayer support then I don't see what the problem is.

 

[mangyiscute]

If the airport can limp on with low or no taxpayer support then I don't see what the problem is.

The problem is the environmental cost of short haul flights compared to rail.

 

[Chester1]

The problem is the environmental cost of short haul flights compared to rail.

That is true of multiple flights in the UK. I don’t see the difference between people flying from Manchester to Heathrow compared with Teeside to Amsterdam.

 

[CarrotPie]

That is true of multiple flights in the UK. I don’t see the difference between people flying from Manchester to Heathrow compared with Teeside to Amsterdam.

There's less water between Manchester and Heathrow?

 

[mangyiscute]

That is true of multiple flights in the UK. I don’t see the difference between people flying from Manchester to Heathrow compared with Teeside to Amsterdam.

Well if it was up to me both routes would be banned - I can understand the case for the Amsterdam one though, because there aren't that many alternatives - eurostar is a lot longer since it is so indirect. The fact Manchester to London flights still exist is a travesty and should be sorted out immediately.

 

[TBY-Paul]

It will be interesting to see where the station will be, I’ve seen it mentioned, that the Houchen’s aim is to move the terminal nearer to the present station location, if, and it’s a big IF, the station remains in its present location, that to me would suggest that the long term aim is to move the terminal.

 

[deltic08]

Well if it was up to me both routes would be banned - I can understand the case for the Amsterdam one though, because there aren't that many alternatives - eurostar is a lot longer since it is so indirect. The fact Manchester to London flights still exist is a travesty and should be sorted out immediately.

Do you drive a car or travel everywhere by horse and carriage?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Considering this is the rail forum, I have to say ideas of London flights are horrific - this is a distance that can be covered in 3 hours by train delivering you into central London with far far better environmental cost. Flights such as that should be completely banned, not being encouraged. If it was up to me, I'd ban the Aberdeen flight too.

Price has a lot to do with that. Take Eurostar for example. May be more environmentally friendly, but all the while it costs me £250 return over £30 return with Ryanair if I play my cards right, it’s not attractive.

 

[skyhigh]

Price has a lot to do with that. Take Eurostar for example. May be more environmentally friendly, but all the while it costs me £250 return over £30 return with Ryanair if I play my cards right, it’s not attractive.

If you play your cards right, you can get cheaper Eurostar fares too. Looking just a couple of weeks in advance and I can see £39 each way fares from London to Paris. No fee for seat choice, can take 2 large items of luggage and a smaller bag for free and get dropped off right in the centre of Paris so no travel costs to get into the centre.

It's unfair to compare apples with oranges by cherry-picking the best Ryanair fares you can find with the most expensive Eurostar.

 

[mangyiscute]

Do you drive a car or travel everywhere by horse and carriage?

I take public transport as often as I can, and usually end up walking further than I drive each year - I get that that is not possible for everyone, but there are plenty of things we can all be doing to make a difference.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jan 2024 ==

Price has a lot to do with that. Take Eurostar for example. May be more environmentally friendly, but all the while it costs me £250 return over £30 return with Ryanair if I play my cards right, it’s not attractive.

That's why it comes down to the government to ban flights such as that and then make the trains much cheaper - something this current government is doing the exact opposite of.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It's unfair to compare apples with oranges by cherry-picking the best Ryanair fares you can find with the most expensive Eurostar.

I didn't do that, I went by the last six Ryanair and easyJet flights I've used since October (all under £30 each way) and by all of the many times I've tried to book a Eurostar ticket over the past few months, and how every time a return would have set me back around £200.

Back on the topic of the new station though, much as I support low cost air travel and the benefits it's brought me, especially outside of London where Bristol has been a godsend, I'm surprised the passenger levels at both the Teesside Airport and the disused rails station can justify the expense and effort of this new station.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jan 2024 ==

That's why it comes down to the government to ban flights such as that and then make the trains much cheaper - something this current government is doing the exact opposite of.

Eurostar is now French, and by all means boycott cheap flights if you wish, but don't call for everyone else who uses them (and may not be able to travel abroad without them) to miss out.

 

[py_megapixel]

Eurostar is now French

And why is that? Because the UK government used to have a significant stake in it...

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The Northern Echo article says about the present mothballed station:

(2021/22) just 42 people used the station, making it the third least used in the country.

Yet fails to include an estimate or proposal of how much this will increase. If it doesn’t increase significantly, that is a serious waste of public money, especially money quoted as being that released from the cancellation of the Northern leg of HS2, which would have had major benefits for multiple regions.

 

[Chester1]

There's less water between Manchester and Heathrow?

There is still a fixed link enabling the journey to be done by train, if the policy is to avoid all short haul flights.

Well if it was up to me both routes would be banned - I can understand the case for the Amsterdam one though, because there aren't that many alternatives - eurostar is a lot longer since it is so indirect. The fact Manchester to London flights still exist is a travesty and should be sorted out immediately.

Withrawal of Manchester to London flights would pretty much cut off the north of England from British Airways network. BA is not going to code share with Avanti because of the need to change twice. If Teeside loses its Amsterdam service then there will be no through ticket alternative because there is no rail service from Teeside direct to an airport of significance. Banning point to point ticket sales would be a more reasonable approach but I bet they were a small proportion of Teeside to London flight tickets and an even lower proportion of Teeside to Amsterdam tickets.

And why is that? Because the UK government used to have a significant stake in it...

Its OT but the Tories decision to sell Eurostar was (with hindsight), remarkably fortunate. They sold the UK government stake at close to the top of Eurostar's value and left its current shareholders with a massive loss from the pandemic.

 

[py_megapixel]

BA is not going to code share with Avanti because of the need to change twice.

If only there had been a high speed railway directly from Manchester Airport to London, calling at a new station in west London and so offering an easy interchange with very frequent trains to Heathrow...

But, back in the real world, is this really an issue even with the current state of affairs? Apart from the few people travelling to e.g. business parks by the airport, almost nobody is connecting at Heathrow because they want to get to Manchester Airport - they are doing it because they want to get to Manchester itself (or somewhere in its orbit). For that purpose, either Stockport or Piccadilly (or possibly even Wilmslow) is more useful.

Assuming Manchester does actually see trains onto the bit of HS2 that gets built, that gets the number of changes down to one. If the price of cancelling Manchester-London flights is that people flying from Manchester to destinations served only from Heathrow have to go on Crossrail for a few minutes then I'm sorry but it's a price we'll have to pay.

 

[Acfb]

It's shame HS2 won't be built in full for a long time if ever as then it should be possible to get rid of all flights within England to London airports. I'm more sympathetic to the idea of at least a few domestic non-London flights being kept such as Bristol/Southampton to Newcastle

 

[Darandio]

and a second Tees Crossing which has gone nowhere. I'm surprised some of this "HS2 money" wasn't used there.

The crossing hasn't gone away though, Houchen is back today with another stab at the 'Tees Tunnel'.

 

[Benjwri]

It's shame HS2 won't be built in full for a long time if ever as then it should be possible to get rid of all flights within England to London airports. I'm more sympathetic to the idea of at least a few domestic non-London flights being kept such as Bristol/Southampton to Newcastle

I think the French Government's rule of domestic flights being banned when the route can be done by train in under 2hrs 30 is correct. We shouldn't be judging it by London/Non London, but rather how efficient the train service is. Arguably flights to Newcastle are just about acceptable, and I would say trains to Scotland just aren't at the level to totally elimite flying, but maybe with extra taxes added on. There are some very necessary domestic flights from London which trains can't replace, for example to the Scottish Islands

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jan 2024 ==

The crossing hasn't gone away though, Houchen is back today with another stab at the 'Tees Tunnel'.

And using HS2 money for it as well!

 

[Mag_seven]

A reminder that this thread is about the speculative possibility of a new station at Teesside airport. If anyone wants to discuss anything else then they are welcome to start a new thread elsewhere.

thanks

 

[IanXC]

If Teeside loses its Amsterdam service then there will be no through ticket alternative because there is no rail service from Teeside direct to an airport of significance.

The third busiest airport in the UK isn't "an airport of significance" then?

 

[Killingworth]

Withrawal of Manchester to London flights would pretty much cut off the north of England from British Airways network. BA is not going to code share with Avanti because of the need to change twice. If Teeside loses its Amsterdam service then there will be no through ticket alternative because there is no rail service from Teeside direct to an airport of significance. Banning point to point ticket sales would be a more reasonable approach but I bet they were a small proportion of Teeside to London flight tickets and an even lower proportion of Teeside to Amsterdam tickets.

We in Sheffield are rather jealous of Teesside's direct hourly TPE service to Manchester Airport offering connections to very many cities around the globe without having to change flights. Newcastle Airport also has frequent Metro services direct to the terminal with connections to Teesside from Newcastle Central. Note both are much busier airports and both their stations are close to the check in desks along covered walkways.

Check the population density map and you'll see why the other airports can draw on much bigger populations; https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/maps/...pulation-density/persons-per-square-kilometre.

Teesside in between is unlikely to take enough traffic from Newcastle and Manchester (plus Leeds/Bradford) to provide enough trade for a frequent bus service running to the terminal, let alone justify the very high sums required to build a new rail station some way from it. MME is not a recognisable destination for the majority of air travellers and a fancy railway station won't do much to change that. Even within Teesside there must be better transport uses for the sum that would likely be required.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I predict within ten years the whole estate will finally be given over to housing, with a shiny new access road and a shiny new railway station. Houchen will be long gone, his mates won’t be. Trebles all round.

Silver lining is then people will actually use the station to go to Darlo/Newcastle/'Boro and onwards connections, so it won't be a complete white elephant.