Tales of excess

[robertbishop]

I have some experiences I would like to share about buying 'change of route' excesses, both for interest and in order to check what should actually be available.

Trying to buy these always seems like a lengthy task for staff, which could be because these products are just uncommon, or it could be because I'm pushing at a door which doesn't actually open. I don't want to bother ticket office staff further for something they can't actually do.

All of these examples relate to travel between London and Birmingham. In general what I'm trying to do here is travel up (or 'down'!) on one operator and come back on a different operator. I don't want the inflexibility of Advance tickets, so we're just talking walk-up fares here.

I've read the excess section of the forum fares guide and read several threads on the same subject. My interpretation of what is available is that you can buy a return ticket for a given operator, and then buy a 'change of route' excess to change the route validity on one direction only, to a more expensive route. This excess should, I think, cost half the difference between the more 'expensively routed' return ticket and the 'cheaply routed' return ticket.

I've tried to do this three times (that I have records of), and I've had a different result each time:

When	Intended journey	Ticket I bought	Excess sold to me	Result
Feb 2025	MYB-KID on Chiltern, KID-EUS on WMR then Avanti	Super Off-Peak Return, London Terminals to Kidderminster, route Only via High Wycombe and Birmingham, £25.40	'X/S Change of Route (Return)', Kidderminster to London Terminals, 'Valid only via Birmingham', £11.10	Price as expected (47.60-25.40)/2=11.10 I asked about the same product at a different ticket office and they said no such product existed
May 2025	EUS-BHM on Avanti, BMO-EUS on Chiltern	Super Off-Peak Return, London Terminals to Birmingham Stations, route Via High Wycombe, £26.60	'X/S Change of Route (Single)', London Terminals to Birmingham Stations, 'Valid via any permitted route', £7.05	Price lower than expected Was expecting: (48.05-26.60)/2=10.725
Nov 2025	EUS-BHM on Avanti, BHM-EUS on LNR	Super Off-Peak Return, London Euston to Birmingham Stations, route Valid on LNR & WMR services only, £22.30	'Off Peak Return' (at the top - but it said 'Excess' in the bottom-right of the ticket), London Underground Zone 1 (!) to Birmingham Stations, 'Valid via any permitted route', £14.85	Price higher than expected Was expecting: (48.05-22.30)/2=12.875 I asked about the same product at a different ticket office, and the member of staff was adamant that route excesses could not be bought for just one leg

I'm interested in any answers to/thoughts on:

1. What should be available to the passenger in this situation?
2. Is there any explanation for the differences in result above?
3. Can I be more specific as to increase the chances of success/speed? I'm assuming I have to go to a ticket office

Any insights much appreciated - for my benefit next time, for anyone else looking to do the same thing, and the sanity of ticket office staff. Can supply more detail if required.

 

[transportphoto]

EUS-BHM on Avanti, BHM-EUS on LNR

I’ve only skim read. This specific excess should not be available - it is not possible to “excess away” a train operating company restriction. Change of route excesses can be made for geographical route restrictions (e.g. via High Wycombe.)

The forthcoming changes to the National Rail Conditions of Travel (discussed on this forum separately) will again change your entitlements to change of route excesses. These are due to come into effect later this month.

 

[Hadders]

Excess fares, and change of route excess fares in oarticular, are notoriously difficult to obtain. I think there's many reasons for this:

- They are genuinely hardly ever asked for (orobably because the concept of excess fares has zero publicity)
- Staff receive little training in these areas and combined with the fact that so few are sold means staff knowledge is often lacking
- Rather than look it up or ask someone staff sometimes claim they don't exist or can't be sold.

To add to what @transportphoto has said, currently a change of route excess can be obtained on board with no penalty which is helpful because that often gives you more than one opportunity to obtain it. From 23rd November, when the new NRCoT comes into effect, the contractual right to a change of route excess is removed which means you will have to obtain it before boarding. What you should do if there are no facilities to obtain it, or you are refused sale of a change of route excess, isn't clear.

 

[Haywain]

The third excess should not be issued for reasons outlined above, although they are incorrect in respect of the second example. Overall, you've done better than you should have done.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Nov 2025 ==

This specific excess should not be available - it is not possible to “excess away” a train operating company restriction. Change of route excesses can be made for geographical route restrictions (e.g. via High Wycombe.)

Wrong in respect of the example you quoted.

 

[CyrusWuff]

From 23rd November, when the new NRCoT comes into effect, the contractual right to a change of route excess is removed which means you will have to obtain it before boarding. What you should do if there are no facilities to obtain it, or you are refused sale of a change of route excess, isn't clear.

I suspect the answer is likely to be that you should buy a new ticket and try to get a partial refund on the original.

Which is all well and good where Single Leg Pricing applies and you purchased the original ticket from a Ticket Office (given a change of plans that requires you to purchase a new ticket is one of the examples where a refund admin fee shouldn't be charged.) Not so good when the Return isn't just double the price of the Single and/or you bought your ticket online.

 

[Roy Badami]

I'd been thinking about route excesses (and the lack of availability thereof) and had been wanted to ask a question about it here for a little while - so this seems a good opportunity.

Case in point of an actual journey that I've made I think twice, although many years ago.

Off-Peak Return (or more likely Saver Return) from Cambridge to Manchester Stations. Opted for the cheaper, although slower, "route not London". During my stay in Manchester, my plans changed and I wished to change to a "route any permitted" on my return, so that I could break my journey for an evening in London. At the time, at least, the route excess for one leg was half the difference in return fares, and break of journey on this ticket was allowed.

On a subsequent journey, I knew in advance that I would want to do exactly this, so I purchased a "route not London" return, and then excessed it, because this option was cheaper than purchasing a "route any permitted" return.

The particular situation of "route not London" tickets is unlikely to concern me for the foreseeable future, for the simple reason that I currently live in London - and more generally the issue of alternatively routed tickets seems to crop up much less for journeys to/from London - operator restrictions seem to be more common, at least on the routes I take - and I believe operator restrictions can't be excessed to an "any permitted"?

Firstly, are route excesses still available in these circumstances and charged in the same way? If so, then since the excessed ticket is clearly the cheapest ticket for the proposed journey, shouldn't it be offered to anyone who wants to make that journey? But finally, and most importantly, in these days of online ticketing, how are you supposed to purchase it? Will any ticketing site actually sell you such a ticket?

EDIT TO ADD: Of course, if we were to move to single leg pricing - which seems like it may be the direction of travel - then that would remove the need for an excess, at least in the preplanned case.

 

[furlong]

since the excessed ticket is clearly the cheapest ticket for the proposed journey, shouldn't it be offered to anyone who wants to make that journey?

Yes it should and it is a scandal that websites and the newer journey planning TVMs neither offer these tickets nor sell you the most appropriate cheapest fare with an instruction to pay the excess to staff before or during your journey. (Even now, they could of course include such an instruction in the email saying how much was due and even in general terms how to issue the excess and tell people to show this email at a ticket office or to the ticket inspector.) The ORR (in its consumer protection role) should have taken enforcement action to sort this out years ago! How many people are still overpaying without realising it?

 

[transportphoto]

Wrong in respect of the example you quoted.

Forgive my naivety, surely “via High Wycombe” can be excessed to Any Permitted? Perhaps combining the paragraph has confused matters - I should have clarified the comment to avoid potential conflict with the TOC restriction?

 

[Haywain]

Forgive my naivety, surely “via High Wycombe” can be excessed to Any Permitted?

Yes, it can.

 

[fandroid]

Once surplus complexity has been cleared out (!) perhaps we could be offered tickets that are pre-excessed? Fairly easy to present when issued in the form of Aztec coded etickets. Let's make positive use of the technology.

 

[Roy Badami]

Once surplus complexity has been cleared out (!) perhaps we could be offered tickets that are pre-excessed? Fairly easy to present when issued in the form of Aztec coded etickets. Let's make positive use of the technology.

Exactly! If I want to travel outwards by one route and back by another then, where appropriate, I should surely be offered the appropriate return ticket together with an excess, right at the point of sale - be that booking office or web site.

 

[ainsworth74]

Wrong in respect of the example you quoted.

Is it? That's a TOC restriction so cannot be excessed away?

 

[Haywain]

Is it? That's a TOC restriction so cannot be excessed away?

Yes, or no, perhaps!

 

[transportphoto]

Yes, or no, perhaps!

I’m going to counter to say that my posting is not incorrect.

A TOC restriction e.g. London North Western only cannot be excessed away. Excessing to Any Permitted would not add validity of Avanti/Chiltern (and would therefore be somewhat pointless in most cases.)

A geographical restriction e.g. via High Wycombe can be excessed to Any Permitted and will therefore gain validity directly from Euston on Avanti/LNWR.

The exception which comes to mind for my “somewhat pointless in most cases” is excessing an Advance Single. Despite excessing to an Any Permitted flexible fare, the original TOC restriction of the Advance ticket will remain enforceable.

Please can you elaborate on the specific element you believe I am incorrect on?

 

[Haywain]

Please can you elaborate on the specific element you believe I am incorrect on?

I mafe amidtake in saying you were wrong. You will note that was immediately after I had, inadvertently, agreed with you.

 

[furlong]

An excess converts one fare that was available to purchase into another one.

If the new fare has no TOC restriction but the old one has, that TOC restriction disappears on the new ticket.

The train company has no authority to invent ad hoc hybrid fares with extra restrictions not part of the genuine fares.

This is set out in the binding Ticketing and Settlement Agreement paragraph 6-6(4).

But while TOCs cannot enforce imaginary restrictions on excessed tickets, usually in these cases they have no obligation to sell them and won't.

In case 3, your original ticket had no validity on Avanti and you needed to purchase a brand new one (and seek a refund on the original). When it's bought in error from the same location or train company (exact policies vary), ticket offices will often treat it as a mistake and exchange it for the correct ticket at the difference in cost - a refund plus new sale. The change of origin means no ticket office is permitted to sell that excess. However, once you had been sold the new ticket you actually got, it was valid on Avanti because the fare is Any Permitted and necessarily loses all trace of the fare it was excessed from: You've now paid for this particular fare, why would you not have all its associated rights?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Nov 2025 ==

For reference,

6-6 (4)
Excess Fares
(a) An Operator may Sell any Excess Fare that gives the Purchaser of it the rights described in paragraph (b) below and those rights are the same as the rights that arise under a Permanent Fare or a Temporary Fare which that Operator is entitled to Sell. However, before it does so it must take reasonable steps to ensure that the Purchaser already holds a valid Fare for the same Flow or (in the case of an Excess Fare which falls within paragraph (b)(v) below) part of that Flow.
(b) An Excess Fare may only be Sold if it entitles the Purchaser of it to:-
(i) travel via a different route than the one he would otherwise be entitled to use;
(ii) travel at a different time or on a different day than he would otherwise be entitled to travel;
(iii) terminate or break and resume his journey at a Station at which he would not otherwise be entitled to do this;
(iv)use a better class of accommodation;
(v)travel beyond the Station to which the Fare he holds entitles him to travel, but only where he was unable to buy a Fare that entitles him to make such a journey at the Station where and at the time when he started his journey; or
(vi) start his journey at a Station that is on the Permitted Route for the Flow that he is entitled to use, where he would not otherwise be entitled to do this.

(a) ensures the TOC restriction always disappears.
(b)(v) means it was not permitted to sell it.

 

[Halsebee]

I has bought change of route excesses regularly for a journey from the South West to West Coastway stations (or vice versa)via Salisbury, excessed one way to travel via London, and never had a problem, ticket office staff have always issued the correct priced excess

 

[robertbishop]

Thank you all for our replies, especially @transportphoto, from whom I think I have the answer to my original questions (1) and (2):

A TOC restriction e.g. London North Western only cannot be excessed away. Excessing to Any Permitted would not add validity of Avanti/Chiltern (and would therefore be somewhat pointless in most cases.)

A geographical restriction e.g. via High Wycombe can be excessed to Any Permitted and will therefore gain validity directly from Euston on Avanti/LNWR.

I had read 'route' in all prior research as covering both restrictions worded as 'route [place]' and those worded as 'route [TOC(s)]'. But I will now work on the basis that it only covers the former.

In this example, it's reasonably clear from the wording of the restrictons as to which type they are. Is this always the case? I use brfares.com - admittedly a third-party website - which has a 'route' column/field. But the data on there doesn't explicitly distinguish between 'geographical' and 'TOC'.

An excess converts one fare that was available to purchase into another one.

If the new fare has no TOC restriction but the old one has, that TOC restriction disappears on the new ticket.

The train company has no authority to invent ad hoc hybrid fares with extra restrictions not part of the genuine fares.

This is set out in the binding Ticketing and Settlement Agreement paragraph 6-6(4).

But while TOCs cannot enforce imaginary restrictions on excessed tickets, usually in these cases they have no obligation to sell them and won't.

In case 3, your original ticket had no validity on Avanti and you needed to purchase a brand new one (and seek a refund on the original). When it's bought in error from the same location or train company (exact policies vary), ticket offices will often treat it as a mistake and exchange it for the correct ticket at the difference in cost - a refund plus new sale. The change of origin means no ticket office is permitted to sell that excess. However, once you had been sold the new ticket you actually got, it was valid on Avanti because the fare is Any Permitted and necessarily loses all trace of the fare it was excessed from: You've now paid for this particular fare, why would you not have all its associated rights?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Nov 2025 ==

For reference,


(a) ensures the TOC restriction always disappears.
(b)(v) means it was not permitted to sell it.

Thank you for this detailed explanation - which I admit to not fully understanding - but I take this as the explanation to no. 2, i.e. what I was sold in the Nov example. I will try to avoid asking for this in future.

To add to what @transportphoto has said, currently a change of route excess can be obtained on board with no penalty which is helpful because that often gives you more than one opportunity to obtain it. From 23rd November, when the new NRCoT comes into effect, the contractual right to a change of route excess is removed which means you will have to obtain it before boarding. What you should do if there are no facilities to obtain it, or you are refused sale of a change of route excess, isn't clear.

Thank you to those who pointed out the effect of the NRCoT changes, which I will keep an eye on. I expect that I will get the hang of these rules just in time for the new ones!

Lastly, returning to no. 3, can I ask if anyone knows whether there is any other way to purchase excesses, outside of ticket offices?

 

[Krokodil]

Lastly, returning to no. 3, can I ask if anyone knows whether there is any other way to purchase excesses, outside of ticket offices?

From a conductor. But you are reliant upon finding one who knows how to do one, who knows how to do the specific one you're after, and who is willing to put the time in to do it. It would be great if I could just scan a ticket and autofill the "existing ticket" section, but I have to fill it out manually.

I’ve only skim read. This specific excess should not be available - it is not possible to “excess away” a train operating company restriction. Change of route excesses can be made for geographical route restrictions (e.g. via High Wycombe.)

They appear to have done an over-distance excess (to London Underground Zone 1) to get around the inability to "change of operator" excess.