T68 refurb

[Nym]

If you're including Salford Quays Link then you might want to start including routes like the 147 Oxford Road Link, provided in partnership with... UMIST, MMU, UoM, BBC, and various NHS Trusts.

PS: Yes I know UMIST doesn't exist any more...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

TFGM have now decided they want to (and have the means to) replace all the t68's with m5000's. A batch of 12 m5000's will be ordered very soon to replace 12of the t68's like for like.
The second batch will be ordered as soon as funding is worked out, but as a 'plan b', provisions will also be made to refurbish the remaining t68's if required.

http://www.agma.gov.uk/cms_media/files/13_tfgmc_minutes_16_9_11.pdf

Will there be a market for the T68 trams that will be replaced by the newer trams?

 

[Nym]

Perhaps an open access operator will buy them up, convert them so they can be hauled by a 57 with it's Dellner, then haul them by diesel over the Mid Cheshire Line to Chester? Then up the Metrolink line into Piccadilly... Just a thought

 

[gnolife]

I don't see why the T68s need a like for like replacement, surely it would be better capacitywise to run the T68 and T68a in multiple on the lines that can use them (IE Altrincham, Eccles and Bury), and also get new trams

 

[WatcherZero]

They were built 20 years ago and while they had a 30 year life in mind they were supposed to have a thorough mid life refurb at 15 years which hasnt happened. The crappy Italian electrical wiring is different on every vehicle and several suppliers have gone bust so they have had to reverse engineer components and commision other companies to make them. They have become pretty unreliable now with an average of 5-10 thousand minutes between service affecting failures.

They have been planning a refurb but they have to assess the cost benefit, how much does the refurb cost to keep them in service for another 10 years and is it actually cheaper to buy a new tram which is more reliable and will last 30 years. They were leaning towards refurb but as they have started becoming even less reliable they have now chosen to order at least 12 direct replacements. This gives them a year to find funding to replace the other 20 before their current contract options expire.

 

[dggar]

If you're including Salford Quays Link then you might want to start including routes like the 147 Oxford Road Link, provided in partnership with... UMIST, MMU, UoM, BBC, and various NHS Trusts.

PS: Yes I know UMIST doesn't exist any more...

variou NHS trusts?????

I thought it was only Central Manchester Foundation Trust.

 

[futureA]

I don't see why the T68s need a like for like replacement,

They are notoriously unreliable and it makes sense to have a fleet of identical vehicles.

 

[HSTEd]

variou NHS trusts?????

I thought it was only Central Manchester Foundation Trust.

Presumabely the University Hospital Trust do as well, the Dental Hospital in particular is within a couple of hundred yards of the route.

 

[jonesy3001]

http://www.gmpte.gov.uk/tfgm_news.cfm?news_id=9007865?submenuheader=3
This was on the TFGM home page.

 

[Nym]

Back to thinking in the real world, would anyone else think this might be an appropriate time for TfGM to look in partnership with Northern and Cheshire Councils to invest in some Tram/Trains for the Mid Cheshire Line, I'm sure Bombardier could come up with a 4 car M5000 with a bus engine mounted in each carriage vertically (or two at each end) to generate when off wires, then just a few track alterations around Navigation Bridge (Hand it all to either NR or Metrolink and share them properly). Would just need to be built to heavy rail standards.

EDIT: Same could go for the East Lancashire Railway to Rawthenstall via Bury Bolton Street.

4 car fixed formations might also mean being able to add a toilet into the units. Locked OOU between Altham and Manchester, or in retention mode.

 

[WatcherZero]

The ELR plans are reportedly quite advanced but the Dft wont approve a scheme until the Sheffield trial has done the box ticking. Manchester and a few other places are pulling at the leash as they see this as an opportunity for rolling stock procurement and service enhancement without having to rely solely on Dft funding, instead they could self fund, borrow against assets or like Mid Hants finance the whole scheme from the lower running costs and subsidy.

Mid Hants im a bit dissapointed with but happy for at the same time, a year ago they ran a procurement process for second hand vehicles but reportedly they got some quite good offers for fresh rolling stock so their rerunning the procurement process again with slightly altered specifications that makes it easier for new builds to compete.

 

[185]

Bagsy a T68 for Birkenhead

 

[northwichcat]

Perhaps an open access operator will buy them up, convert them so they can be hauled by a 57 with it's Dellner, then haul them by diesel over the Mid Cheshire Line to Chester? Then up the Metrolink line into Piccadilly... Just a thought

I doubt the T68s would be crash worthy running on the same line as the freight services to and from the Brunner Mond works. If the T68s are crash worthy to be used on the same line as heavy rail then serious questions will be asked as to why Chester-Manchester rail services couldn't continue via Sale after Metrolink started.

 

[dggar]

Presumabely the University Hospital Trust do as well, the Dental Hospital in particular is within a couple of hundred yards of the route.

The full titile is Central Manchester University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust and includes the Dental Hospital

 

[northwichcat]

They are notoriously unreliable and it makes sense to have a fleet of identical vehicles.

I take it for 'unreliable' you mean a high failure rate. The M5000s are unreliable in the sense that they can't run the Altrincham and Bury services and keep to time due to their poorer acceleration and difficulty to travel at speed.

When they put a M5000 on an Altrincham-Bury services and a T68 on the following Piccadilly-Altrincham and Piccadilly-Bury services, the T68s catch up the M5000s despite being scheduled to leave Manchester 6 minutes later. With the new trams and the extra services Altrincham-Piccadilly by tram can take up to 35 minutes compared to the advertised 24 minutes.

There is also the issue of Mosely Street still being open and doubled up M5000s being too long for the platform there.

 

[WatcherZero]

It isnt poorer acceleration, theres lower temporary speed limits (40mph) on the M5000 on certain stretches of worn track because they react more badly too it. According to those connected to it the heavier T68's are wearing a unique wear pattern on the rails which other T68's will then use but causing a more uncomfortable ride on the lighter M5000's which ride over the wear pattern. They could sort it if they reground the rails but if the T68's are still operating on the lines they will wear the same pattern again.

Similar issue exists I believe on predominantly pacer lines, they wear a unique wear pattern that if you stuck a sprinter on the line later would find it much rougher.

 

[northwichcat]

It isnt poorer acceleration,

According to manufacturer's figures the T68s have acceleration of 1.3m/s while the M5000s have acceleration of 1.08 m/s so after 1 minute of accelerating a M5000 will be 13.2m behind a T68.

Similar issue exists I believe on predominantly pacer lines, they wear a unique wear pattern that if you stuck a sprinter on the line later would find it much rougher.

I've been on many lines where a Sprinter has been put on a line where most of the traction is Pacer and have never experienced a rough Sprinter ride because of it. There is some noticeable difference if you are on a Sprinter attached to a Pacer though.

 

[WatcherZero]

If you check The T68's figures are for dry weight (no passengers) and the M5000 figures are for half load (50% of max passengers). You can work it out for yourself really, Same tractive motors on the T68a (4x120kw) as on M5000 (T68 original have less, 4x105kw) and 6-10 tonnes less weight.

 

[Samtron2000]

There is also the issue of Mosely Street still being open and doubled up M5000s being too long for the platform there.

The problem isn't that they are too long, it's because the M5000s don't have retractable steps. Mosely Street is the last of the original "profiled platforms". The rear portion of the platform is half height requiring a step up which the T68s have but as the plan was to remove all of these platforms, the M5000s were ordered without them.