Support for SOPA beginning to wane

[Harlesden]

I begin if I may with a little background.
In the film industry, a substantial part of the money required for making a new film is derived from profits on sales/rentals of existing films.
In the music industry, the performers are not releasing records for fun. It is their living. They derive a lot of their income from Royalties on sales of their CD's. Music stores and legitimate download sites such as iTunes pay certain fees - mandatory fees - the Music Protection societies who then, in turn distribute it to individual artists.
In the software and computer games industry, it is the profits from sales of existing product that makes the creation testing and launch of new product possible.
This is the way it has always been, and it is the online theft of product that is of concern here.
There are thousands of American teens who appear to spend every waking hour either finding ways of downloading product for free that should legitimately be paid for or having found a way, then downloading said product from "file sharing" sites aka torrent sites.
This behaviour among a large minority of American teens has become so much of an epidemic, an everyday feature of their lives, that you must think of their behaviour in the same way as the looting of a store in the shopping centre.
Film, software and games industries are losing money left right and centre and this has the potential to severely affect future releases of new product. Rather like a full 20% of a TOC's customers finding a sneaky way to travel for free and the TOC being somehow powerless to stop it.
There is a way to stop it. Have ALL "file sharing" aka torrent sites closed down thereby cutting of the supply of free illegal downloads.
If I am a recording artist, I expect to make a few pence on each and every purchase of my song. It is not happening. Teens are not going to their local music store - they are not visiting iTunes - they are finding the songs on "file sharing" sites and taking the songs for free.
Just this morning on Yahoo! Answers, there was a post from a teen openly and apparently proudly proclaiming he was downloading six torrents simultaneously and he wanted to know how to speed up his downloads. The answers he received were either encouraging or cautionary "That's illegal, man".
Something like SOPA is genuinely needed but the legislation currently proposed goes way too far and affects genuine innocent people. Whereas I am very much against illegal downloading, I am happy to know that support for the legislation as proposed is diminishing.

 

[Schnellzug]

The problem is that America rules the world, and until that stops American politicians, in the pockets of American business, will be able to rule what everyone in the world does. Plus, of course, as is always the way with politicians the world over, they may be well meaning, but they don't know anything about the areas which they attempt to control, and so decide that great blanket laws that cover absolutely everything is the way to do it. The basic problem, once again, is that Politicians know nothing except how to Legislate.

 

[90019]

There is a way to stop it. Have ALL "file sharing" aka torrent sites closed down thereby cutting of the supply of free illegal downloads.

So what about all the perfectly legal torrents then?

Just close them all down?
Lets close Youtube then as well, since people get illegally downloaded content from there.
And all file sharing websites, as there are illegal downloads on them too.

Tell you what, I'm sure there will have been copyright infringements on forums such as this one before too, so we'll close them all down just to be safe.

 

[ainsworth74]

There are thousands of American teens who appear to spend every waking hour either finding ways of downloading product for free that should legitimately be paid for or having found a way, then downloading said product from "file sharing" sites aka torrent sites.

I think you'll find (if you take the blinkers off) that a) it's not just Americans that file share and b) it most certainly is not just teenagers that do so.

Film, software and games industries are losing money left right and centre and this has the potential to severely affect future releases of new product.

They are? The Walt Disney Company had a revenue of $40.8 billion last year with an net income of $4.8 billion. Time Warner Inc. (Warner Brothers) had a net income of $2.5 billion in 2010. Money in the music industry is smaller but still impressive Universal Music Group had a revenue of $4.4bn with an operating income of $140 million. This doesn't sound like companies that are desperate for funding and will quickly die if we don't 'protect' them from the evils of file sharing.

There is a way to stop it. Have ALL "file sharing" aka torrent sites closed down thereby cutting of the supply of free illegal downloads.

I'm sorry but that is ridiculously you want to ban websites and programmes that are useful for perfectly legal reasons just to help protect the massive media corporations. That's no better than SOPA and PIPA that you are apparantly against. Did you work for them or something? As I don't see why else you would be so in favour of bowing to their every wish otherwise.

The music and film industry have predicted their own ends many times (and have even tried to have some technology made illegal just as they are now), when cassette tapes came out, when VHS became available and even when MP3 players first appeared on the scene the media industry warned that they would be unable to make money. It hasn't happened yet and it won't, they will learn to adapt and meet their customers demands just like they always have.

Though I'm not sure why I'm posting on this thread as you never seem to respond to anyone that challenges your posts.

 

[SS4]

I begin if I may with a little background.
In the film industry, a substantial part of the money required for making a new film is derived from profits on sales/rentals of existing films.

In the music industry, the performers are not releasing records for fun. It is their living. They derive a lot of their income from Royalties on sales of their CD's. Music stores and legitimate download sites such as iTunes pay certain fees - mandatory fees - the Music Protection societies who then, in turn distribute it to individual artists.

In the software and computer games industry, it is the profits from sales of existing product that makes the creation testing and launch of new product possible.
This is the way it has always been, and it is the online theft of product that is of concern here.

That much is definitely true, there isn't much need to illegally download things nowadays since there is very little originality in the entertainment industry - how many films/games are sequels? In the music industry how many are derived from talent shows or sound exactly the same thanks to technology - infamously autotune

It would be too much to suggest that illegal downloading is solely responsible for this lack of innovation though, it has long been a trend to dispense with originality and grind out the cash cows.

With regards to music there isn't a decent preview service. 30 seconds is too short and, more often than not, it's unrepresentative of the song. You may be able to stream it on youtube but not if SOPA passes but 79p/99p is a lot to be spending on a song which you don't know.
Torrenting is a way of finding out about an album before either buying it or deleting it and this I'd not have a problem with although it would be difficult to prove files had been deleted.

The law does not help, to take an extreme case it is illegal to rip a cd/dvd even for personal use (feel free to correct me if appropriate) sure you're unlikely to ever be called to account but the same can be said for illegally downloading

There are thousands of American teens who appear to spend every waking hour either finding ways of downloading product for free that should legitimately be paid for or having found a way, then downloading said product from "file sharing" sites aka torrent sites.

Not just American teens, this is worldwide. The Pirate Party won seats in Berlin's council and was formed in Sweden. Up to a point the companies, especially in music, have brought it on themselves by delaying a release for months between the US and the rest of the world and then forcing the rest of the world to pay more! Region coding is a good example of trying to restrict customer's rights. DRM in all it's guises also doesn't help.

I would also like to clarify that the bittorrent protocol is not illegal, it is the downloading of copyrighted material that is.

This behaviour among a large minority of American teens has become so much of an epidemic, an everyday feature of their lives, that you must think of their behaviour in the same way as the looting of a store in the shopping centre.

Definitely true, there are plenty of people out there who believe they should get everything free of charge. It is easier to get away with illegal downloading, especially if you encrypt the data and there have been few court cases for file-sharing.

Film, software and games industries are losing money left right and centre and this has the potential to severely affect future releases of new product.

They could well be losing money because their products are derivative, largely bereft of new ideas and far too expensive to start off with. Illegal downloading of course makes a difference but you're implying it's the sole cause when it's more likely to be a minor cause.

Rather like a full 20% of a TOC's customers finding a sneaky way to travel for free and the TOC being somehow powerless to stop it.

A poor comparison, you can't really compare since you're talking about a physical service. It'd be more like someone not paying for a ticket on Railworks!

There is a way to stop it. Have ALL "file sharing" aka torrent sites closed down thereby cutting of the supply of free illegal downloads.

Bittorrent isn't illegal, file sharing is only illegal on copyrighted material. Why shouldn't I share my gparted ISO? Or the music I got off Jamendo? (Creative Commons)
Also how would you enforce it?

If I am a recording artist, I expect to make a few pence on each and every purchase of my song. It is not happening. Teens are not going to their local music store - they are not visiting iTunes - they are finding the songs on "file sharing" sites and taking the songs for free.

You're falling into the trap of cause and effect - that each illegal download is a loss of one paid download. That is nonsense, a lot of people would not have paid for it anyway and would have gone without and some will buy the product after thorough evaluation.

This isn't just teens you know. It's the progression of buying a film from some guy down the pub which was obviously recorded from the back of the cinema.


Just this morning on Yahoo! Answers, there was a post from a teen openly and apparently proudly proclaiming he was downloading six torrents simultaneously and he wanted to know how to speed up his downloads. The answers he received were either encouraging or cautionary "That's illegal, man".

Something like SOPA is genuinely needed but the legislation currently proposed goes way too far and affects genuine innocent people. Whereas I am very much against illegal downloading, I am happy to know that support for the legislation as proposed is diminishing.

Something like the DMCA?

I do not condone illegal downloading but it needs to be recognised that it's a digital format and infinite copies can be made with minimal expense. Media companies have long overcharged for their wares and if it forces them to bring the price down then good! The record labels/studios have long had control of distribution and their monopoly which was badly abused to rake in $$$ - now they're getting their comeuppance. Consequently, they're running scared and when their own attempts to stop sharing happened they've used the capital reserves to influence the government to bring in this bill which devolves responsibility onto site admins/owners.

SOPA and PIPA need to die a horrible death.

 

[Harlesden]

Your last sentence (ainsworth74) appears a little unnecessary as I am genuinely not aware of any of my posts having been "challenged" as I generally simply ask questions and so there is nothing to "challenge".
If you would kindly point me to some totally legal torrents, I would gladly revise my opinion, but I have been assured by people who would be expected to know that torrenting refers solely to the download (for free) of content that should legitimately be paid for (such as a Windows 7, or a music album, or an entire film). I have been led to believe that if the content being "torrented" were legitimately available for free download, it would be on a conventional website. I would be happy to be proved wrong.
My assertions about American teens are based on the never ending posts on Yahoo! Answers and similar forums from .... American teens ... asking where to find a torrent for this movie or that music album or a full unrestricted version of Photoshop.
YouTube has had anti-copyright measures in place almost from its inception, and are in fact legally obliged to mute/delete a specific video on the instructions of the copyright owner. WMG (Warner Music Group) are particularly hot on YouTube uploads whereas other record labels are more laid back and see the promotional possibilities that an upload gives to their product.

 

[SS4]

Just this morning on Yahoo! Answers, there was a post from a teen openly and apparently proudly proclaiming he was downloading six torrents simultaneously and he wanted to know how to speed up his downloads. The answers he received were either encouraging or cautionary "That's illegal, man".

Do you have a link? Although it's probable you cannot be sure they were illegally downloading.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you would kindly point me to some totally legal torrents, I would gladly revise my opinion

Any free software can be torrented legally. Look for the GPL, I can't link today because they're all taking a stand.

but I have been assured by people who would be expected to know that torrenting refers solely to the download (for free) of content that should legitimately be paid for (such as a Windows 7, or a music album, or an entire film).

Do you still not understand that whether a download is legal or not depends on the file? Of course Windows 7, a music album or an entire film would be illegal to download without paying.

I have been led to believe that if the content being "torrented" were legitimately available for free download, it would be on a conventional website. I would be happy to be proved wrong.

The Open Source software I've seen available for torrent are available from the actual website (google pretty much any linux distro) and torrent is an option, handy for keeping the server cost down.

YouTube has had anti-copyright measures in place almost from its inception, and are in fact legally obliged to mute/delete a specific video on the instructions of the copyright owner. WMG (Warner Music Group) are particularly hot on YouTube uploads whereas other record labels are more laid back and see the promotional possibilities that an upload gives to their product.

So why is something like SOPA necessary? Illegal downloading will continue to exist, in fact everyone but the pirates will be worse off.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Finally could you repeat the following phrase please? four legs good, two legs bad

 

[Chew Chew]

Rather like a full 20% of a TOC's customers finding a sneaky way to travel for free and the TOC being somehow powerless to stop it.

A terrible analogy in all honesty. If someone is on a train for free then them physically being on the train would stop someone else getting on a train. Downloading a song off the internet doesn't stop anyone else going out and buying it.

I hate the way that the music industry seem to think that every downloaded song or album is a lost sale, it isn't and never would be.

illegal downloads.

Are you sure downloading is illegal? I'm not. I always thought it was the uploading part that was illegal?

If I am a recording artist, I expect to make a few pence on each and every purchase of my song. It is not happening.

If you are a recording artist you also need people to come to your gigs. What do artists make more money on? The person who buys the album digitally or in a shop or by the person who downloads it and turns up at their gig?

 

[WelshBluebird]

If you would kindly point me to some totally legal torrents, I would gladly revise my opinion, but I have been assured by people who would be expected to know that torrenting refers solely to the download (for free) of content that should legitimately be paid for (such as a Windows 7, or a music album, or an entire film). I have been led to believe that if the content being "torrented" were legitimately available for free download, it would be on a conventional website. I would be happy to be proved wrong.

Way way way far from the mark I am afraid.
Some torrents are of illegal content. Some are not.
The protocol cannot be illegal as it only specifies how the "thing" happens. The content of what is being shared decides if it is legal or not.
Yes torrents are often used for illegal activity. But they are often not.
Suggesting we should ban torrents because they can be used for illegal means is no different to suggesting we ban mobile phones because they are also used for illegal means.

 

[chris89]

Grading all Torrents as illegal is wrong. The programes are fully legal and are used for a lot of legal purposes as well.

http://ultrapack.il2war.com/index.php/topic,4029.0.html

Since you asked for a legal torrent. A mod pack for IL2 Sturmovik 1946.

http://www.gamefront.com/gabe-newell-piracy-is-a-non-issue/

Gabe Newell the CEO of Valve said this about piracy.

Many games companies (Know more about this then films etc) Are driving people towards piracy due to the restricitions they impose on their software e.g. Ubisofts method of always online, and not playable if your internet goes down.

I myself would avoid looking at yahoo answers as alot of it is filled with Trolls and that sort of people. Also their are miles more serious things to rid the internet of Piracy and give full control of it to an Goverment.

Well we have to wait till the 24th to see if SOPA and or PIPA is passed. I hope that it isn't as it will mean the end of the Internet.

Anyway Pirate bay said this.
http://torrentfreak.com/the-pirate-bay-pipasopa-wont-stop-us120117/

Chris

 

[Laryk]

Right now I am torrenting music. But this doesn't mean it's illegal. The artist encourages and posts links to the torrent files so people can listen to his music. If you happen to like it, you are encouraged to buy it. This is how it should be, in my opinion.

Oh, and I'm English teenager.

 

[Oswyntail]

.....
If you are a recording artist you also need people to come to your gigs. What do artists make more money on? The person who buys the album digitally or in a shop or by the person who downloads it and turns up at their gig?

And if there are no gigs? The songwriters who create the material are also losing out. The "debate" around this area has been cast very firmly as Joe Public vs megaCorps (see the post above highlighting the billions made in the industry), and no one loves a corporation. But there are many thousands of small people involved, and they are the ones getting ripped of by the illegal downloaders.

 

[90019]

But there are many thousands of small people involved, and they are the ones getting ripped of by the illegal downloaders.

Though it is more the smaller people that have embraced torrenting and the like, using it to get people interested in their music who would have otherwise ignored it, and never bothered to buy it.

There are a few artists I had no idea about this time last year, and without being able to download some of it to listen to, I probably still wouldn't know about them now and certainly wouldn't have bothered to buy their albums.

 

[Chew Chew]

And if there are no gigs? The songwriters who create the material are also losing out. The "debate" around this area has been cast very firmly as Joe Public vs megaCorps (see the post above highlighting the billions made in the industry), and no one loves a corporation. But there are many thousands of small people involved, and they are the ones getting ripped of by the illegal downloaders.

No gigs where? If you are a musician signed to a label and your record company/manager cannot arrange gigs for you then they aren't very good at their job. The live music scene these days is as vibrant as I've ever seen it in the almost 20 years I've been going to gigs.

Years ago the music companies said that people recording vinyl onto tape was killing the music industry, they were completely wrong.

The business model of the music industry is evolving and the record companies don't like it.

Once again, is downloading illegal?

 

[Laryk]

There are a few artists I had no idea about this time last year, and without being able to download some of it to listen to, I probably still wouldn't know about them now and certainly wouldn't have bothered to buy their albums.

I agree.
Being young-ish and unemployed, money is always an issue. If I find an artist that I like the sound of I will more often than not download (without paying) their music. If I like them, I will buy a physical copy. Not only can I then have the songs in a high quality lossless format, nothing beats a physical copy! If I can't download it - I don't buy it.
Therefore, no money is being lost - only gained.

 

[TheJRB]

If you would kindly point me to some totally legal torrents, I would gladly revise my opinion, but I have been assured by people who would be expected to know that torrenting refers solely to the download (for free) of content that should legitimately be paid for (such as a Windows 7, or a music album, or an entire film). I have been led to believe that if the content being "torrented" were legitimately available for free download, it would be on a conventional website. I would be happy to be proved wrong.

Take this as an example. Ubuntu is just one of the various distributions of Linux which is provided, among other methods, by BitTorrent as it can be significantly faster than traditional methods.

YouTube has had anti-copyright measures in place almost from its inception, and are in fact legally obliged to mute/delete a specific video on the instructions of the copyright owner. WMG (Warner Music Group) are particularly hot on YouTube uploads whereas other record labels are more laid back and see the promotional possibilities that an upload gives to their product.

You will also find that YouTube is far too controlled by these big media corporations, purely because they're scared of the consequences of acting otherwise. If fact from what I've heard, companies like WMG have a direct "kill switch" on videos with no action required by Google.

I'm very much with Leo Laporte of This Week in Tech (which is an online technology based "TV" station) on the matter. In fact they had an episode of their daily news show Tech News Today pulled off of YouTube because they rebroadcast a clip made by the popular file sharing company MegaUpload which included (dedicated authorised performances) by several well known musicians, purely because Universal Music Group didn't like it's purpose.

This attitude from YouTube is crushing real fair use which isn't a pretend thing as these big media companies would like you to believe. There are a set of guidelines as to whether or not your content (and reuse of others) is fair use.

The fact of the matter is, piracy is simply not as big a problem as they would have us believe. People aren't losing jobs over it, or even much money for that matter. Yes, it's unethical, but so is restricting the internet in the way PIPA and SOPA would in their automatic assumption that everybody's an evil pirate. There are much bigger issues that the American and all other governments should concern itself with than online piracy. What happened to the good old saying of "innocent until proven guilty", eh?

 

[WelshBluebird]

I'm very much with Leo Laporte of This Week in Tech (which is an online technology based "TV" station) on the matter. In fact they had an episode of their daily news show Tech News Today pulled off of YouTube because they rebroadcast a clip made by the popular file sharing company MegaUpload which included (dedicated authorised performances) by several well known musicians, purely because Universal Music Group didn't like it's purpose.

That whole issue was disgraceful. Universal had no right at all to that video. There is no reason at all why they have any claim to it. It is a perfect example of the fact these companies have way too much power and are way too big for their boots (so to speak).

And IMO that is only a taste of what would happen if things like SOPA were allowed to become law.
Companies making claims against websites when the company has no real right at all to do so, and then using their shier size and bank balance to push it through.

Also, in terms of YouTube, what about the laughable situation where an artist can decide to upload some of their music themselves, only to have their label then request a takedown?

 

[Donny Dave]

My main concern about SOPA, is that any American company can make a claim against any website. That website would have to be blocked within 5 days.

For example, if a claim was made against 1 of my websites, and it was blocked on the order of a US court, instead of emailing a counter-claim as is the case now, I would have to fly to the USA, hire a lawyer, and file a counter-claim just to get a hearing organised to get my website back.

PS. The guys behind Dark Legacy (a World of Warcraft e-comic) have had a dig at SOPA as well .... http://www.darklegacycomics.com/322.html

 

[Hydro]

but I have been assured by people who would be expected to know that torrenting refers solely to the download (for free) of content that should legitimately be paid for

Then your expectations were misplaced. Those people are utterly incorrect.

Torrents are merely a method of content delivery - this content can be legal or illegal. You don't shut down the Royal Mail because someone sends a pirate DVD through it.

That is truly a case of shooting the messenger, and it shows the level of ignorance extant in the proponents and proposers of these ill thought out bills and ideas. Ignorance should not become law.

 

[43021HST]

I always pay for my music when downloading it, I would love free music but I had a feeling that this would be too good to be true and would must likely come back to bite me in the bum if I started.

 

[SS4]

Rather like a full 20% of a TOC's customers finding a sneaky way to travel for free and the TOC being somehow powerless to stop it.

The suggestion SOPA suggests is to take a suspect out, shoot them without trial or suspicion then erase them from history.

Unlike the SS Einsatzgruppen however those accusing will not need to suffer the psychological effect since they can get others to do their dirty work

 

[NSEFAN]

I like the XKCD response to SOPA. "If you break this internet, we're not building you another one."

You don't shut down the Royal Mail because someone sends a pirate DVD through it.

Oi! Don't give the government any ideas...

 

[sprite]

If you would kindly point me to some totally legal torrents, I would gladly revise my opinion,

Here is a list I made in 5 minutes.

• Ubuntu
• LibreOffice [NOTE: there is a tick box that says "Download using BitTorrent".]
• Katawa Shoujo
• Fedora
• Pioneer One [NOTE: This page does not contain a download link to a .torrent file, however using the external links at the bottom one can be found easily.]

So we have here a collection of operating systems, office software, a visual novel/game and a web series. All found within 5 minutes of searching, all totally legal to download and distribute using a bittorrent platform.