stroud to kidderminster

[samuel paul]

I use a stroud to kidderminster season ticket which i go via birmingham new street , i have been challenged today saving that the route of the ticket is a multiple ticket route and so its not a valid route can anybody advise me thanks

 

[glynn80]

The AP 7 day season price for Stroud to Kidderminster is £59.20.

Stroud has routeing points Gloucester and Swindon

Kidderminster has routeing points Smethwick and Worcester.

The only valid routeing points will be those with a combination that is less or the same than £59.20 using the fares rule.

AP Glocuester to Worcester is £41.90 (valid routeing points)
AP Swindon to Worcester is £71.40 (invalid routeing points)
AP Gloucester to Smethwick is £71.80 (invalid routeing points)
AP Swindon to Smethwick is £105.70 (invalid routeing points)

So the only valid routeing points are Gloucester to Worcester and this easily has only one map to use for your mapped routes which is WR which shows you must use the direct route between Gloucester and Worcester and cannot travel via Birmingham.

The guard you encountered is correct and if you have been travelling for a while you have been lucky not to of been pulled up before.

 

[yorkie]

Why do you go via BHM - is it quicker that way or do you also have business there too?

As far as I can determine it is, sadly, not valid that way.

Appropriate routeing points appear to be Worcester Gp and Stroud Gp, which limits you to Map WR which only allows journeys on the direct route (the most direct route is always valid anyway without referring to the RG).

 

[glynn80]

Why do you go via BHM - is it quicker that way or do you also have business there too?

As far as I can determine it is, sadly, not valid that way.

Appropriate routeing points appear to be Worcester Gp and Stroud Gp, which limits you to Map WR which only allows journeys on the direct route (the most direct route is always valid anyway without referring to the RG).

There is no Stroud Gp, see my previous post?

 

[jv3531]

I myself would confirm that this ticket would not be valid via Birmingham and am suppreised that no-one has picked up on this. It was lucky you didn't get checked by RPI as they may have issued you with a penalty fare notice or withdrawn your ticket! If you wished to go that way then I would advise purchasing a Birmingham season, which would be - thats what I do with the Cheapday returns and go via worcester/kidderminster outward and cum back via lickey on returns and this is perfectly valid.

 

[yorkie]

I meant Gloucester Group

jv3531 - please stop giving incorrect statements about penalty fares. you cannot get a penalty fare for being off route, please see previous posts by a RPI, Tom C, on this issue.

 

[jv3531]

Yorkie, please answer this one.... How can you be off route when the ticket IS NOT valid? The ticket in question is not valid regardless.... never mid about being off route, if thats the case you could argue that with any ticket?

 

[yorkie]

Yorkie, please answer this one.... How can you be off route when the ticket IS NOT valid? The ticket in question is not valid regardless.... never mid about being off route, if thats the case you could argue that with any ticket?

How can you be on route then? If you are not on route you are off route! And please see what Tom C said on the matter, I don't see the need for me to repeat it. It's a done and dusted topic, which you can read up on.

 

[jv3531]

Have just checked the above ticket validity and from the information I have I know and have been told in the past (I do have several contacts on the railway for several companies):

The ticket in question would be valid via gloucester / worcester to kidderminster. The customers ticket would be invalid from kidderminster and would have to buy a single/return from kidderminster to the birmingham station in question. If the customer decided too travel back through to cheltenham then the ticket would be classed as "Off-route" between Bromsgrove and ashchurch/cheltenham depending on service (as this is where the two services would run parallel. Therefor use of this season ticket north of kidderminster is not valid and being as though worcester - birmingham is within a penalty fares area, the customer could be liable.

Once again there seems to be a differenence of opinion on this but this has been confirmed by railway staff.

 

[dan_atki]

It is a tricky thing to decide the fine line between:
- Travelling beyond validity (resulting in a PF)
- Travelling off route (no PF).

I think a lot of common sense has to be applied to such situations to determine if the place being off route offers better services to the destination and if the customer has a genuine reason for being there. Take the following example.

I once travelled from Leicester to Coventry via Birmingham New Street. The route was valid at the time 18 months ago but isn't any more and the connection must now be made at Nuneaton. I'd like to think if I was on this ticket at BHM again I'd be deemed 'off route' rather than 'beyond validity' as the reason for me being in BHM on this journey isn't completely barmy and BHM has more services to Coventry than Nuneaton and offers more station facilities. Indeed at certain times of the day it is quicker to complete the journey via BHM too. There are 5 trains every hour to Coventry from BHM but only 1 from Nuneaton.

If say however I ended up in Derby to get to Coventry then that would be rather suspicious as I'd have no reason to be in Derby on this ticket. Even though there are direct services from there they all go to BHM before Coventry and provide me with no better service than is at Nuneaton.

Also, there is only a 5 minute connection available at Nuneaton and for those unfamiliar with the station it may not be enough, especially when the arriving service from Leicester is late. It would not be completely unreasonable to stay on the train to BHM to get a connection there rather than wait at Nuneaton - in the elements - for almost an hour.

I think in such situations if it is evident the person is going to a station not valid by their ticket to take advantage of a better service it should be deemed 'off route'. If it is clear they are taking the mick and can't explain why they are there then it should be 'beyond validity'.

I think the fact that both of these reasons exist is clear that routeings are totally bewildering from a passengers perspective. As Tom C said it is looking after the passengers interests - after all, how many people do you know who routinely check the routeing guide before they travel? When in the situation you make split second decisions about the route you are going to use to the destination. You can't check if it's valid when you're on the train at Nuneaton with its doors closing so the system needs such safeguards. ATOC are probably aware the routeing guide is very shoddy in its current state but they don't/won't/can't (you choose) do anything about it.

The next question is if I am deemed to be off-route in the above example what would I be given ticketwise? I'd assume if I had a return, it'd be a return from Nuneaton to BHM and a return BHM to Coventry. Problem is as Tom C describes in another thread* (the one that describes the off-route/beyond validity problem), normally tickets are excessed from a 'Not xxx' route to 'Any Permitted' to enable the route to be valid. This can't happen here as there isn't a 'Not Birmingham' route as well as the 'Any Permitted' (which if the former existed this would be valid via BHM).

At the end of the day, I think the distinguishing between the two scenarios takes common sense to see what the passenger is trying to do and make the appropriate decision based on that.

* http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=222930

 

[jv3531]

I must agree with you on this dan, the routing guide does need to realy be made clearer as to what is and isn't valid.. We have problems sometimes with one of the groups here at gloucester. There are those guards who will argue that tickets from or via gloucester to newport/southwales direction are only valid via chepstow. Several have questioned this before but tickets are valid via Bristol if required. Customers should normally change at parkway/filton (but Temple Meads is permitted) and then onto newport/southwales services via severn tunnel. You are even allowed to travel on connecting services to cheltenham if required.

The old "matter of opinion" tends to come into it alot of the time, some will say it is - others will say no, which is why general members of the public get caught out - if the staff aren't aware then what hope have the public got!

Rules of PF/CTAs need to be more defined aswell as these do cause confusion, such as the case may be at somewhere like snow hill which is normally an open station but comes under CTA rueling.

Also there are several documents which are titled "guidelines" - these are exactly what they are, nothing concrete and should be taken as a guide - This is why we still get differences of opinion because one says one thing and another says the oposite.

 

[glynn80]

Have just checked the above ticket validity and from the information I have I know and have been told in the past (I do have several contacts on the railway for several companies):

The ticket in question would be valid via gloucester / worcester to kidderminster. The customers ticket would be invalid from kidderminster and would have to buy a single/return from kidderminster to the birmingham station in question. If the customer decided too travel back through to cheltenham then the ticket would be classed as "Off-route" between Bromsgrove and ashchurch/cheltenham depending on service (as this is where the two services would run parallel. Therefor use of this season ticket north of kidderminster is not valid and being as though worcester - birmingham is within a penalty fares area, the customer could be liable.

Once again there seems to be a differenence of opinion on this but this has been confirmed by railway staff.

Just out of interest are you ticket office staff or on-train staff?

Also buying just a ticket from Kidderminster to Birmingham would not solve the issue as he would then have no ticket to cover him between Birmingham and Gloucester.

And what information is it you know, have and have been told in the past because that information seems exactly the same as what two other people have posted about the validity of this ticket above.

 

[jv3531]

The ticket would cover customer to use XC local services but yes he would need a ticket from birmingham to cheltenham if it did not stop before hand - forgot that bit. Oh and as I said, my "contacts" are railway staff.

 

[yorkie]

But railway staff have different opinions!

The process should go like this:
1) is he going BEYOND the validity of the ticket to a destination BEYOND Stroud? No. So he is not over-distance.
2) is he taking a route which he THINKS is reasonable but actually is not? Yes. But he is off route.
3) Can you charge a PF for being Off Route? You used to be able to, but you can't now (common sense has prevailed).

The options you have are: No Ticket, Out of Date, Travelling beyond Validity, No Supporting Document, Adult on Child, Standard to First, Off Route and Restricted Ticket.

You will obviously know that the Penalty Fare regulations were changed and you cannot issue a penalty fare if a ticket isn't valid due to it the person being off route or the ticket is restricted by type.

There is a reason for "Off Route" no longer being a valid option for PFs, and the reason is that it is not considered acceptable to penalise genuine customers such as samuel paul for a mistake.

We have established (in the previous topic) that just because someone is off route that doesn't mean that an excess has to be issued. There are circumstances when a ticket does not exist to allow the complete journey, or it may be that the ticket cannot be excessed. new tickets should be issued OR discression can be used, not a penalty fare.

So the question 'Can I excess it? If not, it must not be off route' is flawed.

If anyone was given a PF for being "over distance" when they actually took a route that is not valid in the RG, then I am sure it could be appealed.

And, let's not forget how easy it would be for this ticket to be valid via BHM.. after all, Kidderminster is associated with Smethwick group, which ALLOWS travel via Birmingham! the only reason Smethwick is not an "appropriate" routeing point is because it fails the (complicated) fare check rule. It would be an easy mistake for someone unfamiliar with the RG to make. If people can be penalty fared for that then the system would be an absolute disgrace.

I rest my case!!!

 

[OwlMan]

It is a tricky thing to decide the fine line between:


>I once travelled from Leicester to Coventry via Birmingham New Street. The >route was valid at the time 18 months ago but isn't any more and the >connection must now be made at Nuneaton.

Leicester to Coventry is valid via Birmingham.
The Routeing Guide says it is valid by maps EM or BP+WM
EM gives via Nuneaton
BP+WM gives via Birmingham


Peter

 

[dan_atki]

Leicester to Coventry is valid via Birmingham.
The Routeing Guide says it is valid by maps EM or BP+WM
EM gives via Nuneaton
BP+WM gives via Birmingham

Ah ha, so it is. The mistake I made was looking at an origin further down the MML. Kettering is also valid via BHM, but Bedford isn't rather oddly :? even though the route via Leicester and Nuneaton is. Seems odd considering I change at Leicester anyway so any reason for the discrepancy? I presume the Bletchley route may have something to do about it.