Split Ticket with AP and CDR

[bb21]

A bit of an awkward situation I encountered travelling EMT the other day. I didn't get to come around to posting it as my browser messed up lately and only cleared just then.

I bought AP singles Market Harborough - St Pancras International and the return journey for the 0653 southbound (ex-Leicester 0638) and 2130 northbound for Monday 3rd January as they were only £2.65 each after all discounts were applied. On top of that I purchased a Leicester - Market Harborough CDR for £5.70 on the day of travel from Leicester's ticket office before boarding. (To my surprise it was an HST diagram hauled by 43072 at the front. Good start to the day I thought. )

As we passed Wigston South Junction, the guard came along to check tickets. It took her the good part of 20-30 seconds to inspect the three parts I presented her (AP, reservation coupon, outward portion of the CDR), before turning around and saying to me, "Actually your tickets are not valid, but I'll let you off this one time." The conversation then went as follows, or the gist of it.

Me: Oh?
TM: This ticket you have is an Advance ticket, and you shouldn't have been allowed to extend it.
Me: Yes I understand that, but I have not extended or excessed my ticket. I have bought a separate ticket to Market Harborough so it is a split ticket.
TM: It doesn't matter. If you read the terms and conditions of advance tickets you will see that you are not allowed to extend it. You are only allowed to board the train at Market Harborough and get off at St Pancras on this ticket. To do what you have done, you would have to have got an earlier train from Leicester and got off at Market Harborough. You can then change onto this train at Market Harborough.
Me: So can you tell me then technically would I be allowed if I got on this train then physically get off at Market Harborough before boarding again?
TM: No that is not allowed. You would have to board this train at Market Harborough and not at Leicester. You cannot get on or off the train somewhere else to what your reservation says. For example, if you got on at Market Harborough and wanted to get off at Luton on this ticket then that would not be allowed.
Me: Yes I agree with the Luton example.
TM: I'll let you off this time, but it shouldn't have been allowed. Next time make sure that you follow the terms and conditions of the ticket.
Me: OK thanks for clearing that one up for me.

She then went off. I didn't attempt to argue with her as
(1) she 'let me off' and did not attempt to charge me extra, and
(2) she was polite and patient throughout so there was no reason for me to get worked up by it. Some people might well be embarrassed by such an encounter however I am too thick-skinned to care. It was early morning with only about five people in the carriage and I was just looking forward to having a quiet nap.

Of course if she'd attempted to charge me extra then there was no way I would have coughed up. I was prepared to request an UPFN should she insist on the invalidity of my ticket combo and fight it in appeals.

I would like to know:
(1) whether my split ticket was valid for the journey I made? (I can't think of a reason why not.)
(2) whether it is worth firing off a letter to EMT highlighting this incident? I have no intention of getting anyone in trouble as she remained totally professional throughout but it might unearth some serious flaws in terms of training, etc. She appeared quite new and might have been seriously misinformed. This train originated from Sheffield at 0527 so I assume that the crew would be Sheffield-based?

Any thoughts?

 

[tony_mac]

Any thoughts?

She doesn't have a clue?

'I'll let you off this one time' often means 'I don't like what you are doing, but I can't actually do anything about it'.

I only ever show the currently valid ticket, just in case of stupid hassle like this.

 

[yorkie]

Previously discussed numerous times; see this and this and this topic! (and those are just the recent ones in the last month!)

Without getting into the specifics of your journey (which I will do later) my standard response regarding combining tickets, where one (or more) is an Advance, and there is a concern over whether or not it counts as "one journey" is as follows:

This has been done to death on this forum but as plenty has been said about it before, I recommend doing a search (the hyperlinks that follow are a result of a quick search I have done just now; there are many more examples of this being discussed). I suggest in particular reading this (which I totally agree with), and my experiences (mentioned here among other places) are in accordance with what I expect to happen. A word of warning some rail staff will have their own opinion that is in no way based on what the rules say, they then state it as fact (example) so be prepared to encounter this. But just because you are on one ticket does not mean that rail staff will get you to your destination without a fight, as this example demonstrates. If they are going to make excuses, then it can be about anything, the main thing is to be aware of the rules and your rights.

I helped someone who was wrongly issued an Unpaid Fare Notice (note: never pay up front in such a circumstance; it's much harder to get the money back than if they have to chase you) for being on a combination of Advance tickets for one journey, and getting a later train on the second ticket, due to an earlier delay when the guard did not correctly adhere to the rules. Not only was the UPFN quashed but the guard was given suitable advice by the company concerned. I am also armed with an excellent quote from someone about as high up as you can get, that is sufficient to get someone out of that situation.

Of course, you must allow sufficient interchange time between trains. I would strongly advising plenty more than the absolute minimum, although on a contractual point of view the absolute minimum should be fine, but some of the minimum interchange times are not clear. The more time you allow, the more likely staff will deem it reasonable, and if staff deem something reasonable then the issue of whether you are entitled to it may not arise, this can avoid potential arguments, disputes and stress.

I've never had a problem, out of hundreds of journeys and I very rarely buy one ticket from origin to destination, instead I either buy further (and finish short) or a rover/ranger, or a combination of tickets.

In addition you have a PM with details of something that you can quote to TMs in future.

The TM on EC who tried to charge people for using a combination is no longer doing that as he was given suitable advice. If EMT tried it on, I would expect a similar outcome, and similar advice for the guard!

She doesn't have a clue?

'I'll let you off this one time' often means 'I don't like what you are doing, but I can't actually do anything about it'.

Indeed it does

I only ever show the currently valid ticket, just in case of stupid hassle like this.

Sometimes I like to avoid hassle, sometimes I am quite prepared to have an interesting debate with an unknowledgable guard. It depends on many factors! Hardly ever do I encounter a problem though, as the vast majority of guards are sound in my experience
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Of course if she'd attempted to charge me extra then there was no way I would have coughed up. I was prepared to request an UPFN should she insist on the invalidity of my ticket combo and fight it in appeals.

OK, now I've read it, and I am shocked! I would definitely write to the company and complain. Please let us know the outcome.

I would like to know:
(1) whether my split ticket was valid for the journey I made? (I can't think of a reason why not.)

yes, it is valid "for one journey"

(2) whether it is worth firing off a letter to EMT highlighting this incident? I have no intention of getting anyone in trouble as she remained totally professional throughout but it might unearth some serious flaws in terms of training, etc. She appeared quite new and might have been seriously misinformed. This train originated from Sheffield at 0527 so I assume that the crew would be Sheffield-based?

Any thoughts?

Definitely. If she honestly believed what she was saying (and if you say she was, I won't doubt that) then she must have been told this by someone. That is very worrying as it means that there may be more guards who believe the same thing. Could be a training issue, or mess room gossip.

Yes, would surely be Sheffield based.

 

[Ferret]

She doesn't have a clue?

'I'll let you off this one time' often means 'I don't like what you are doing, but I can't actually do anything about it'.

I only ever show the currently valid ticket, just in case of stupid hassle like this.

That'd just p**s me off if I keep having to stop to stamp a ticket every time you change onto your next ticket! I once told off a group of lads for that along the lines of just show me all of your bloody tickets, it's perfectly valid for goodness sake!!!

Going back to the OP's point - why the hell would you enter into a pointless chat like that as a TM when you can either be selling a ticket or getting back to the office for a cuppa?! I don't understand some staff, I really don't!

 

[yorkie]

You can quote this to anyone who moans about combinations of tickets.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=530382&postcount=72

"COMBINATION OF TICKETS – RETAIL COMPLIANCE AND UNDERSTANDING OF CONDITION 17 OF NATIONAL RAIL CONITIONS OF CARRIAGE (NRCoC)

Following a recent Court case there has been some confusion over the sale of more than one ticket for use on a train journey. This item is intended to clarify the position.
When a customer asks for the cheapest ticket you are not obliged to offer them a combination of tickets. However, if a customer specifically asks for a particular combination of tickets you must sell those tickets, as long as your office has the necessary fares manuals, ticket issuing system and/or reservation facilities to do so.
NRCoC 17b allows a passenger to use two or more tickets as long as they cover the entire journey and the train the passenger is travelling on calls at the station where they change from one ticket to another. There is no requirement for the passenger to change trains or momentarily step onto the platform."

 

[bb21]

I'll get round to do it later today. I'll make sure that it is sent recorded so that they 'definitely' receive it. Tbh I would be shocked if I receive anything other than an apology, but then given that she must have been told by someone else 'higher up' it probably isn't going to be such a shock anyway.

 

[yorkie]

That'd just p**s me off if I keep having to stop to stamp a ticket every time you change onto your next ticket! I once told off a group of lads for that along the lines of just show me all of your bloody tickets, it's perfectly valid for goodness sake!!!

Well, I have more knowledge than the 'average' customer, but if I was on XC from York to Bristol splitting at all the usual places, I'd only show the Sheffield ticket to the first TM as I know they'd be off at Leeds, and I wouldn't bother showing the Brum-CNM/CNM - Bristol until after Brum either, as I know the guard would change there. But if I know it's going to be the same guard then I usually show them all.

However some guards have told me that they do NOT want to see any ticket other than the one you are currently using! This is quite rare though, but it does happen. Anyone who they said this to, may then follow this instruction for future guards, who may want the opposite!

Going back to the OP's point - why the hell would you enter into a pointless chat like that as a TM when you can either be selling a ticket or getting back to the office for a cuppa?! I don't understand some staff, I really don't!

Agreed, and not only do they make their jobs harder, but they make the job of all guards that little bit harder in the end.

 

[bb21]

Going back to the OP's point - why the hell would you enter into a pointless chat like that as a TM when you can either be selling a ticket or getting back to the office for a cuppa?! I don't understand some staff, I really don't!

Maybe she was bored, given that there was probably no more than 20 people onboard the whole train and I was in coach A. There are no more coaches in front of me. I do believe that she genuinely thought she was right, which is why it is worrying.

 

[Ferret]

Well, I have more knowledge than the 'average' customer, but if I was on XC from York to Bristol splitting at all the usual places, I'd only show the Sheffield ticket to the first TM as I know they'd be off at Leeds, and I wouldn't bother showing the Brum-CNM/CNM - Bristol until after Brum either, as I know the guard would change there. But if I know it's going to be the same guard then I usually show them all.

However some guards have told me that they do NOT want to see any ticket other than the one you are currently using! This is quite rare though, but it does happen. Anyone who they said this to, may then follow this instruction for future guards, who may want the opposite!

The lads I referred to had done about 5 splits all while I was in charge of the train. By the 3rd time I'd had enough! It was a friendly telling off, and we did have a good laugh about it!!!

 

[b0b]

By the 3rd time I'd had enough! It was a friendly telling off, and we did have a good laugh about it!!!

why are you telling someone off for having valid tickets?

 

[Mike395]

why are you telling someone off for having valid tickets?

Presumably because he was just fed up of having to check the group's tickets after every split, when he could've just checked the whole journey first time round!

And in any case, sounds like it wasnt really a serious telling off, much more a light hearted one!

 

[Ferret]

Presumably because he was just fed up of having to check the group's tickets after every split, when he could've just checked the whole journey first time round!

And in any case, sounds like it wasnt really a serious telling off, much more a light hearted one!

Precisely Mike! It turned out they weren't 100% sure that what they were doing was legitimate! I guess they know now!

 

[b0b]

Precisely Mike! It turned out they weren't 100% sure that what they were doing was legitimate! I guess they know now!

the only problem is how is the customer going to know whether to show all the tickets at once and get a guard like ferret, or show them to a guard like the other person did in the AP+CDR thread and be told they're doing something wrong by combining.

I can see why a passenger might only want to show the ticket thats valid for the current section of the journey, it seems the safer solution when guards have inconsistent training.

Ferret could perhaps make an announcement along the lines of "if you're using multiple tickets for one journey on this train, please show all of them" - then the guard that doesn't know better wouldn't know to do that.

tricky

 

[sheff1]

However some guards have told me that they do NOT want to see any ticket other than the one you are currently using!

Indeed, this is exactly what happened to me some years ago and the guard was quite rude about it as well, suggesting that I was wasting his time by showing more than one ticket. Even since then I have ...

... follow this instruction for future guards, who may want the opposite!

So I am afraid, Ferret, if I am ever on one your trains with a combination of tickets it looks like I will p**s you off. Unless, of course, your name badge shows 'Ferret', in which case I will produce all my tickets just for you

 

[Ferret]

Indeed, this is exactly what happened to me some years ago and the guard was quite rude about it as well, suggesting that I was wasting his time by showing more than one ticket. Even since then I have ...



So I am afraid, Ferret, if I am ever on one your trains with a combination of tickets it looks like I will p**s you off. Unless, of course, your name badge shows 'Ferret', in which case I will produce all my tickets just for you

You're a bad man Sheff1!

 

[natureboy]

She doesn't have a clue?

'I'll let you off this one time' often means 'I don't like what you are doing, but I can't actually do anything about it'.

I only ever show the currently valid ticket, just in case of stupid hassle like this.

I did something like this because I'd left it too late to book an Advance Purchase ticket when I decided to take my bike to London for a 'certain' ride around town back in June! I got a Cottingley - Newark return and a Newark - London return. This saved me approx. £17 on a through Cottingley - London ticket. The only condition I was supposed to follow was that all my trains had to call at Newark Northgate, which they did, and my bike was free! Excellent journey there and back.

 

[bb21]

Now for the follow-up.

I received a reply this week from EMT and it went as follows:

Dear xxx,

Thank you for your letter dated 07 January 2011. I am sorry for the problems you experienced with the service provided by East Midlands Trains.

I have forwarded your letter on to the relevant manager so that we can address this issue of combination tickets. I have spoken with colleagues within our Head Office and the combination does seem valid as long as the train you are travelling on stops at Market Harborough.

In terms of training, we do run customer-centred courses designed to enhance staff communication skills. As well as covering this subject during their initial induction, every member of staff is required to participate in an annual course on this topic too. It is about more than training though, it's about an attitude we recruit for and expect to see in all our staff.

Once again, please accept our apologies for the disappointing level of service provided by East Midlands Trains and the problems that this caused to you. Despite your recent experience, I hope that you will use our service again in the future.

Yours sincerely
xxx
Customer Relations Officer

I must say that I was slightly disappointed that it took so long to confirm that split-ticketing is legit, although I know they did mention a reply within a target of 20 working days when the initial communication started.

Glad that it is now with the right people for the issue to be resolved. However I can't stop feeling that the bit about attitude and training in their reply was pretty redundant and irrelevant to my case and that the customer services guy was merely following a script without giving it too much thought. Nowhere in my original complaint touched on bad attitude or that she was not able to explain herself very well. In fact I was quite complimentary about how professional and polite she remained in order that she would not get into big trouble for it. Like I said before, I thought she really believed what she was telling me at that moment in time.

Looking forward to hassle-free travel on EMT from now on with split tickets.

 

[First class]

Now for the follow-up.

I received a reply this week from EMT and it went as follows:



I must say that I was slightly disappointed that it took so long to confirm that split-ticketing is legit, although I know they did mention a reply within a target of 20 working days when the initial communication started.

Glad that it is now with the right people for the issue to be resolved. However I can't stop feeling that the bit about attitude and training in their reply was pretty redundant and irrelevant to my case and that the customer services guy was merely following a script without giving it too much thought. Nowhere in my original complaint touched on bad attitude or that she was not able to explain herself very well. In fact I was quite complimentary about how professional and polite she remained in order that she would not get into big trouble for it. Like I said before, I thought she really believed what she was telling me at that moment in time.

Looking forward to hassle-free travel on EMT from now on with split tickets.

The only "issue" that will be "resolved" is the removal of whatever pricing anomaly existed.

If no action is taken against you, (e.g. Penalty Fare, UPFN etc), I'd be inclined to keep your head down. As soon as TOCs become aware of such money saving schemes, they generally make arrangements to remove the anomaly.

 

[tony_mac]

I don't think combining a CDR and an Advance ticket creates a fare anomaly - it's probably actually dealing with one that exists because of the restricted availability/pricing of Advance fares.

If I want to go to London from Wavertee tomorrow and catch the 10:48 from Lime St; it is £61 for a through Advance ticket, yet the Advance from Lime St is £30.50 plus £1.50 for the single from Wavertree.
What is the anomaly here?

 

[Paul Kelly]

That's a very interesting anomaly. The £30.50 ticket from Lime Street to London is ticket type VAS (VAS-->VBS-->VCS-->VDS-->VES are progressively cheaper standard class Virgin advance fares). But there is also a VAS ticket from Wavertree TechPk to London priced at £32.50 (OK, still more expensive than splitting, but in a much more reasonable price range and this £32.50 fare applies to lots more stations as well and for some of them it probably does represent a saving). I'm really intrigued as to how the quotas in the reservation system work. I would have thought that as long as the reservable train had some VAS quota available, then all VAS fares would be available connecting into it, but clearly they are not.

The £61.00 fare is in a completely different range of advance fares; it is a BCO which is the cheapest in the range BAO-->BBO-->BCO. There is even a first class advance available for £48.00 available for the exact same trains that only the £61.00 standard advance is offered.

I guess different quotas must apply depending on the routeing on the ticket. E.g. when all the VAS quota is used up for tickets routed VWC & CONNECTNS, there might still be some left for tickets routed VIRGIN TRNS ONLY. Does *anybody* know how this really works?

 

[bb21]

If no action is taken against you, (e.g. Penalty Fare, UPFN etc), I'd be inclined to keep your head down. As soon as TOCs become aware of such money saving schemes, they generally make arrangements to remove the anomaly.

If it is one of the more obscure fares or one with an odd routeing then I probably would keep it within a small circle. However I'm not so sure that no one at the TOC is aware of the price difference or that they do not expect the more savvy passengers to soon catch up on the savings, given that you can see all over the places and on their website that Advances from Leicester start at £11 each way and that ones from Market Harborough start from only £4, in many cases on the same page. Hardly rocket science for anyone with half a brain to figure out.

 

[wibble]

VAS-->VBS-->VCS-->VDS-->VES

These are the old Virgin Value fares and were priced for mainly leisure travel.

BAO-->BBO-->BCO.

These are the old Virgin Business Advance fares which were made available on busier trains and were priced above the Virgin Value fare. This fare also had different refund/change rules and were less restrictive than the Virgin Values.

 

[bnm]

That's as maybe, but they are still the codes used for Advance fares from Wavertree/Liverpool.

 

[Paul Kelly]

It was a very interesting insight though, and interesting to see that the large gap in price between the most expensive Value Advance (the VAS) and the cheapest Business Advance (BCO) has been maintained, even though the latter now offers no advantages over the former. Looking at the fares in Avantix Traveller it just sorts them by price and mixes up the 1st and Std fares together; a more logical order to see the patterns would be:

BFO ADVANCE 1ST     VU  £186.00
BGO ADVANCE 1ST     VU  £156.00
LFB ADVANCE 1ST     VU  £109.50
BHO ADVANCE 1ST     VU   £78.50
FAS ADVANCE 1ST     VA   £60.00
FBS ADVANCE 1ST     VA   £48.00
FCS ADVANCE 1ST     VA   £35.50

BAO ADVANCE         VX  £121.50
BBO ADVANCE         VX   £99.00
BCO ADVANCE         VX   £61.00
VAS ADVANCE         VR   £32.50
VBS ADVANCE         VR   £25.00
VCS ADVANCE         VR   £18.00
VDS ADVANCE         VR   £12.50
VES ADVANCE         VR    £9.00

The different restriction codes would seem to be another indicator of the "heritage" of the different advance fares! Any ideas what LFB stands for?

 

[barrykas]

The different restriction codes would seem to be another indicator of the "heritage" of the different advance fares! Any ideas what LFB stands for?

I'd hazard a guess that it relates to the old "Leisure First" tickets, though it's not listed in the big list o' ticket types in NFM98 (the last printed one).

Cheers,

Barry

 

[Paul Kelly]

Leisure First makes sense. I'm finding this (relatively) fascinating. Don't suppose anybody would be able to send me an old copy of Avantix Traveller from before fares simplification - maybe the legendary first one that was available on the ATOC website for a while? I seem to have arrived a bit late on the scene...