Spanish train derailment - 09 Sep 2016

[158722]

European Rail. Portugal has nothing to do with Sweden has nothing to do with Greece has nothing to do with Germany etc. Why is that so difficult to understand. Mind you, the UK had its fair share of accidents in the past

The accident happened in Spain. Most lines here in Portugal have a more advanced system than much of the lines over the border (high speed excepted).

Initial analise is showing the train traveling at 120kmh, instead of the 30kmh limit for the loop into line 3 at Porrino.

 

[notadriver]

UK AWS and TPWS are very safe. When was the last time lives were lost on a UK train due to excessive speed ?

 

[306024]

UK AWS and TPWS are very safe. When was the last time lives were lost on a UK train due to excessive speed ?

No expert but remember reading the report of the accident at Eltham Well Hall, a quick Google says that was 11 June 1972.

 

[duesselmartin]

UK AWS and TPWS are very safe. When was the last time lives were lost on a UK train due to excessive speed ?

Derailments due to poor track condition with loss of life is no joke either. Look at Railtrack. Also many spad related accidents in the 1990s. And again, Spain is not all of Europe. Belgium and Germany had different causes forthe unfortunate accident, yet both are statistically very safe system. What I cannot phathom is that some see the UK as one system, and Europe as another.

 

[Scott M]

The accident happened in Spain. Most lines here in Portugal have a more advanced system than much of the lines over the border (high speed excepted).

Initial analise is showing the train traveling at 120kmh, instead of the 30kmh limit for the loop into line 3 at Porrino.

Seems like my point is proven - this could never happen in the Uk as we would have approach control in place.

 

[Giugiaro]

Seems like my point is proven.

Then, don't go to Spain!

 

[Flying_Turtle]

And even the one from Lousa was due to blatant disregard of regulations (it was not an error but an active mistake)
The one from 2013 was in ATP area but can be attributed to a mix of wheel slip and bad ATP regulations which, together with the ATP exarcebated the result ( basically Drivers are instructed to drive trains by the ATP instructions and the ATP was installed as overlay and not as a cab signalling system... not that it can't do that properly to some extend but it was not its purpose)
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I know - read what I said... all the way between Porto and Vigo. I well remember the local uproar when the new Celta service was introduced as being non-stop.

And after sometime they did put some stops to connect to main towns (anyway whenever they cross another train betwen Nine and Valenca they have to stop or slow sown to 30 kph when going through the station)

 

[duesselmartin]

Just as a reminder. Accident investigation is not complete yet

 

[Flying_Turtle]

The UK has a very safe railway because of the way it approaches safety. The AWS/TPWS combination is very effective, combined with an excellent driver tutoring. In Portugal you have the ATP but basically they don t give a **** how you drive trains as long you stop before reds... drivers are on their own and have no support at all... they just teach them to drive the darn things and from there they are on their own! Also regarding safety practices... well... compared to the nowadays UK , Portugal is miles under... simply a modern infrastructure is a very good disguise for lots of things going around...
Regarding Spain... their signalling practices have been responsible for many of their accidents. (10 in the last 20 years I believe)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just as a reminder. Accident investigation is not complete yet

Oh but it wont be long... it the next few days something will be out

 

[WatcherZero]

Initial investigation of black box has found it was doing 120kph on the loop line which has a speed limit of 30kph.

 

[Flying_Turtle]

Initial investigation of black box has found it was doing 120kph on the loop line which has a speed limit of 30kph.

Well... that seems to be the case... but when I insisted that the train wasn't overspeeding I wasn't joking around... Unfortunately Spanish signalling might have done it again!

 

[Dieseldriver]

Seems like my point is proven - this could never happen in the Uk as we would have approach control in place.

Nope, I could list low speed points on high speed lines in the UK which aren't protected by approach control signals or TPWS. Despite the advancement I. Safety in the UK, there is still a reliance on driver skill/ route knowledge and vigilance.

 

[Giugiaro]

The layout at O Porriño has the through track at platform 1, which is set at 120km/h, as the train was going when it derailed.

What bugs me is why the train went ALL THE WAY into platform 3, at that speed!

This line is, in no way, unrefurbished at all. All the tracks are new and electrified. All the points are motorized and the signals are all modern. AT LEAST, ASFA should have warned the driver 350m before the first point, where a balize is located, just before the motorway.

Unless, ASFA DOES NOT WARN the driver of any state of the signal IF IT IS NOT RED.






Another thing that bugs me is that in the images immediately following the accident, there are no signs of the supposed works being held in the through line, nor any signaling pointing the presence of such.

Also, some images suggest that the last bogie of the train was mostly over platform's 2 track, with some damage dealt to that same track, after the point for platform 3.


I'll be eagerly awaiting for the results of the civil investigation. We do know that the train was running at mainline speed as it derailed, so something did not happened to warn the driver of the detour, if there was one to begin with...


Sidenote: I find it funny how the Spanish are already blaming the driver. Somehow they must have some reason to blatantly hate railway drivers... the same was noted with the Santiago derailment, even when it was proven that the characteristics of the infrastructure could easily confuse the driver of his apparent position, while at the same time the track and train were unequipped with proper Automatic Train Control and Protection for such a huge change in speed.

 

[Flying_Turtle]

Spaniards naturally think they are the best... it is on their blood... It's a trait, nothing to do against that... let the dogs bark.

AFAIK the key to this accident is on the outer home signal I think, once again, the blame will go down to their absolutely stupid signalling practices which have costed many lives through the years (Santiago, Villada, Chinchilla, Arévalo)

a video of that stretch.. the outer home signal is around 5:38 (Signalling is now modern and it seems the outer home has variable speed indicator... which I believe will be the key to all this).

https://youtu.be/pQOuqH6DAcI

 

[rf_ioliver]

The layout at O Porriño has the through track at platform 1, which is set at 120km/h, as the train was going when it derailed.

What bugs me is why the train went ALL THE WAY into platform 3, at that speed!

What is the typical routing of this train through O Porriño - does it use the side tracks at all normally?

One possibility here is that that due to engineering works that the driver was not informed or was confused by instructions relating to restrictions in this area, cf: Jokela Train Crash in Finland.

Then there's signalling failure, driver error, fatigue, management pressure etc to take into consideration.

What's the likely timescale for a release of an [interim] accident report from the Spanish authorities?

Spaniards naturally think they are the best... it is on their blood... It's a trait, nothing to do against that... let the dogs bark.

I don't think there's any nation that doesn't consider itself "the best" ... and considering some of the posts here this statement can be accurately applied to the UK

t.

Ian

 

[158722]

Press reports here (admittedly the aforementioned Correio de Manha newspaper) this morning saying that there was an IT failure with the points being set for the line 3 loop, but the signal aspect on the main line approach was not changed. As the Spanish ASFA system only advises the driver based on the next signal aspect, unlike the speed related and control (CONVEL) system used here in Portugal, this is being investigated as the possible cause for the excess speed.

As for why there were no 'works' visible on line 1, as queried by Giugiara, this could have been something simple as workers attending lineside equipment within the safety zone of the line, hence the diversion to line 3.

 

[Giugiaro]

What is the typical routing of this train through O Porriño - does it use the side tracks at all normally?

As in the previous video to our comment, through platform 1.

What's the likely timescale for a release of an [interim] accident report from the Spanish authorities?

In Portugal, it took 11 months for the Alfarelos accident. In Spain, again 11 months for the Santiago accident.

I don't think there's any nation that doesn't consider itself "the best"...

*ahem* Portuguese. Mr and Mrs "the foreign do stuff better than us".



Also, curiously I've read some news articles pointing the details for the Alfarelos Accident Report. It notices that leaves caused a drastic change in the adherence to the rail, causing a much longer braking curve than it's normally considered by the ATC.

While this matter is common place in the UK, and there's proper tools to deal with the issue, the Portuguese completely laughed at the reason given to the accident!

I kid you not, DO NOT READ PORTUGUESE COMMENTS ON NEWS PAPERS!
They give you cancer!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I kid you not, DO NOT READ PORTUGUESE COMMENTS ON NEWS PAPERS!
They give you cancer!

Sounds familiar...

 

[Flying_Turtle]

Sounds familiar...

But you do know what papers not to read...

In Portugal is like... only Publico (which is utter crap for many thing) does proper reports and it is because the journalist that does them was a kind of an anorak)

In the Alfarelos incident hardky the rescue operations had finished and TV reporters were strawling inside the wreck...

Regarding leaves... the report didn t acknowledge that ... in fact it didn t ackowledge anything at all especially because the stupid driver didn t die and it is always comolicated to blame someone alive as it tends to argue back...