SouthWestTrains Prosecution Help

[pcr1234]

Hi All,

So I was issued a ticket at Waterloo station (26th Oct) for boarding a train without a ticket, I accepted this at the time and tried to make payment by my card but the ticket machine didnt accept my card (funds were available) so I took the ticket and agreed to pay it later. I gave them my drivers license so they knew who I was.

I used the address on my drivers license as address however this is now my family home and I havent lived there for a year. Having started a new job in London I put the ticket aside to pay but completely forgot about.

So the letters for overdue fines went to my family home where I didnt pick them up untill over christmas break. I saw the fines and called up IRCAS on 3rd Jan to make payment but the automated service said it had been passed onto prosecuters, as it was sunday theres nobody there to take my call.

I call the prosecuters today (4th Jan) to say Im happy to pay the fine and they inform me it was passed onto them on the 1st Jan. So unlucky me I'm 1 working day out from being able to make the now £93.80 fine as normal. The prosecuters say they as of yet dont have any paperwork through and I should call back in 2 week.......


Can someone help me here or give me some advise? The last thing I want is to be prosecuted for this and have a criminal record, would I be likely to pay an out of court settlement? If they refused and it went to court do I have a case? Please help,

Thanks,
A worried commuter.

 

[najaB]

Can someone help me here or give me some advise? The last thing I want is to be prosecuted for this and have a criminal record, would I be likely to pay an out of court settlement?

I think, given the fact that a PF was offered, if you can show that the reminder letters, etc. went to an old address that they would be amenable to settling the matter without having to go to court. That said, a question that will be on their mind is why, given that it's your family home, did nobody tell you that letters had arrived for you. Expect the settlement amount to be more than £98.30 though as they have incurred additional costs since it was offered.

If they refused and it went to court do I have a case?

We would need more information - see the sticky post at the head of this thread.

 

[455driver]

Don't your family inform you when you have had mail delivered to the 'family' home?
Do you not visit the 'family' home regularly so you can pick up the post?
Does all your post go to the 'family' home or just the stuff you want to ignore/hope it goes away?
Do you suffer memory lapses with other things?

I am sorry but me being a cynical old git don't actually believe much of your story!
Why didn't you have a ticket in the first place?
Do you do this often?
Did you hope that if you ignored it that it would go away?

If this went to Court would you have a defence?
With what little info you have given, no you wouldnt, they have tried to contact you at the address you gave, you then didn't bother to check for post at that address! What would your defence be for this?

NajaB,
It wasn't an 'old' address though was it?
It was the address given by the OP as a contact address.

Why haven't you changed your driving licence over to your new address?
Not doing so is an offence!
Do you have a car?
Have you changed the details on the logbook?

 

[tony6499]

Don't your family inform you when you have had mail delivered to the 'family' home?
Do you not visit the 'family' home regularly so you can pick up the post?
Does all your post go to the 'family' home or just the stuff you want to ignore/hope it goes away?
Do you suffer memory lapses with other things?

I am sorry but me being a cynical old git don't actually believe much of your story!
Why didn't you have a ticket in the first place?
Do you do this often?
Did you hope that if you ignored it that it would go away?

If this went to Court would you have a defence?
With what little info you have given, no you wouldnt, they have tried to contact you at the address you gave, you then didn't bother to check for post at that address! What would your defence be for this?

NajaB,
It wasn't an 'old' address though was it?
It was the address given by the OP as a contact address.

Why haven't you changed your driving licence over to your new address?
Not doing so is an offence!
Do you have a car?
Have you changed the details on the logbook?

The original post makes no sense, family home but doesn't live there etc ?

The OP has the answer to his question so he doesn't need advice, they were told to ring back in 2 weeks so that is what they should do and see if they can pay to make it go away or have their day in court.

 

[cuccir]

It's very common and not that dodgy for eg students or people working on short term contracts to live in one place but keep their 'family home' as an address for driving licenses, mobile phone bills etc. Put yourself in the shoes of someone who is on rolling contracts and doesn't know where they'll be in 6 months time!

It's not illegal if the address is still somewhere you can be contacted - if you still stay there regularly, if you collect mail that goes there, and so forth. There can also be good reasons as well - when I went for my first mortgage 2 years ago I found to my cost that having lived in 4 addresses over a 20 month period, due to the short term nature of my work, significantly reduced my credit rating. It would have saved me around a grand over the last 2 years if during that time I'd continued using my parents' address as I had when I was a student! And of course, let's face it, many won't updated for a few years out of forgetfulness/laziness.

However, this all seems to be a red herring to me: the error was not in giving the address, but in not collecting the post that went there. Najab's post and the 2nd paragraph of 455driver's post remain more relevant and a response to the questions there will help us understand the situation more.

 

[pcr1234]

Don't your family inform you when you have had mail delivered to the 'family' home?
Do you not visit the 'family' home regularly so you can pick up the post?
Does all your post go to the 'family' home or just the stuff you want to ignore/hope it goes away?
Do you suffer memory lapses with other things?

I am sorry but me being a cynical old git don't actually believe much of your story!
Why didn't you have a ticket in the first place?
Do you do this often?
Did you hope that if you ignored it that it would go away?

If this went to Court would you haave a defence?
With what little info you have given, no you wouldnt, they have tried to contact you at the address you gave, you then didn't bother to check for post at that address! What would your defence be for this?

NajaB,
It wasn't an 'old' address though was it?
It was the address given by the OP as a contact address.

Why haven't you changed your driving licence over to your new address?
Not doing so is an offence!
Do you have a car?
Have you changed the details on the logbook?

I commute into London for work and go through Waterloo to access the tube so I wasnt fare dodging as its impossible for me to get to my destination without a ticket. I've arrived at the train station too late to buy a ticket so I've run straight on the train. The trains obviously packed early morning with little standing space so walking up and down to find a ticket conductor is a thankless task however having done this trip hundreds of times before I know that there are always ticket operators at the gates as you arrive at Waterloo.

It was here I approached them to purchase a travelcard for the day and they issued me a fine instead, I still needed to buy a travelcard to get to Holborn as well as get back to Ascot. Its the first train fine I've received.

So I put the fine god knows where carry on and simply forget it exists. There is no reason then as for me not to pay that fine, I understand that forgetting to pay that fine is not acceptable or an excuse.

The letters go to my family house mid November and early December but by the time I finally pick them up I'm out of time and its been passed onto the prosectors. When your not thinking about a fine your not thinking about letters you should be receiving. I'm not coming here saying I have a defence or I've been done wrong. I dont have a defence as to WHY I didnt pay the fine or why I didnt check for post, obviously I could quite easily have done both had I thought too. Simply that with the post going to my parents home I didnt notice.

As Najab summarises well, I am early 20s recently out of uni and I dont yet have a settled home so I often either stay back at my parents and frequent back there which is where I pick up post.

It sounds like BS, I can see that. But 7weeks is not a long time between when the first letter was received and it being sent to court (maybe it is in legal terms I've no idea). If it helps in any way I also have a similar outstanding item (although less pressing) with student loans.

 

[455driver]

It's very common and not that dodgy for eg students or people working on short term contracts to live in one place but keep their 'family home' as an address for driving licenses, mobile phone bills etc. Put yourself in the shoes of someone who is on rolling contracts and doesn't know where they'll be in 6 months time!

Is any of that relevant or are you just trying to make excuses for the OPs lack of interest in dealing with this issue?

It's not illegal if the address is still somewhere you can be contacted - if you still stay there regularly, if you collect mail that goes there, and so forth. There can also be good reasons as well - when I went for my first mortgage 2 years ago I found to my cost that having lived in 4 addresses over a 20 month period, due to the short term nature of my work, significantly reduced my credit rating. It would have saved me around a grand over the last 2 years if during that time I'd continued using my parents' address as I had when I was a student! And of course, let's face it, many won't updated for a few years out of forgetfulness/laziness.

Surely you would attempt to pick up the mail at that address though, unlike the OP!

However, this all seems to be a red herring to me: the error was not in giving the address, but in not collecting the post that went there. Najab's post and the 2nd paragraph of 455driver's post remain more relevant and a response to the questions there will help us understand the situation more.

Indeed, this smacks of 'if I ignore it then it will go away' syndrome, unfortunately that lack of interest in dealing with this issue has seen it escalate to a point where the OP has realised it isn't going away!

Some answers to the questions asked would help others give the OP some advice but I haven't seen anything in the OP to make me think they will now accept what the OP was asked for several months ago, but ignored, they don't allow 'time to pay', its either pay up when the offer is made or it escalates!

 

[pcr1234]

Is any of that relevant or are you just trying to make excuses for the OPs lack of interest in dealing with this issue?

Surely you would attempt to pick up the mail at that address though, unlike the OP!

Indeed, this smacks of 'if I ignore it then it will go away' syndrome, unfortunately that lack of interest in dealing with this issue has seen it escalate to a point where the OP has realised it isn't going away!

Some answers to the questions asked would help others give the OP some advice but I haven't seen anything in the OP to make me think they will now accept what the OP was asked for several months ago, but ignored, they don't allow 'time to pay', its either pay up when the offer is made or it escalates!

I understand the law has little time for honest mistakes but this was not a case of sitting on the letters hoping they disappear. I point to the fact that I have received no letters or warning yet saying I will be prosecuted to prompt me to into doing this I only found out because I called them once I had the letters in my possession.

I appreciate the cynical thinking by the way because thats ultimately the situation I am now in with regards to who I will be dealing with. I would still appreciate any help or advice that others may be able to offer with regards to the likelyhood of being able to settle out of court or if there are other parts to my "story" which may help or hinder me!

 

[cuccir]

Is any of that relevant or are you just trying to make excuses for the OPs lack of interest in dealing with this issue?

Surely you would attempt to pick up the mail at that address though, unlike the OP!

It was relevant as the previous two posts were questioning the whole story on the belief that this was an unlikely situation. I was pointing out that the situation itself - keeping a family home as an address for a period of time after moving- is quite believable and is not a basis to question the whole post!

As you (and I) have noted, the failure is not collecting the post from the address and hoping that it would go away.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think we can move on from the issue around why the address hasn't been changed over. The discussion isn't very helpful to the OP and we need to move on to providing assistance using the information that is available. Speculation and/or accusations are not going to be helpful nor in line with our guidance for those giving advice found here.

 

[6Gman]

I commute into London for work and go through Waterloo to access the tube so I wasnt fare dodging as its impossible for me to get to my destination without a ticket. I've arrived at the train station too late to buy a ticket so I've run straight on the train. The trains obviously packed early morning with little standing space so walking up and down to find a ticket conductor is a thankless task however having done this trip hundreds of times before I know that there are always ticket operators at the gates as you arrive at Waterloo.

It was here I approached them to purchase a travelcard for the day and they issued me a fine instead, I still needed to buy a travelcard to get to Holborn as well as get back to Ascot. Its the first train fine I've received.

So I put the fine god knows where carry on and simply forget it exists. There is no reason then as for me not to pay that fine, I understand that forgetting to pay that fine is not acceptable or an excuse.

There are a few things here which puzzle me.

1. You "commute into London for work". But buy your tickets daily? Doesn't a season ticket make more sense? Especially when you've made this journey "hundreds of times". (In fact, that is the origin of the word "commuter" - one who makes a commuted payment, rather than paying a daily fee. But I digress.)

2. You say you were issued with a "fine". Only a court can issue a fine. What did you actually receive? Perhaps an unpaid fare notice (ie a request to pay the fare due) plus a penalty fare?

3. You put the "fine" (ie the relevant paperwork) "God knows where". Oh dear!
Do you not realise how this looks to the railway company? They asked for payment ... and heard nothing.

 

[455driver]

I understand the law has little time for honest mistakes but this was not a case of sitting on the letters hoping they disappear. I point to the fact that I have received no letters or warning yet saying I will be prosecuted to prompt me to into doing this I only found out because I called them once I had the letters in my possession.

I appreciate the cynical thinking by the way because thats ultimately the situation I am now in with regards to who I will be dealing with. I would still appreciate any help or advice that others may be able to offer with regards to the likelyhood of being able to settle out of court or if there are other parts to my "story" which may help or hinder me!

Are you saying you hadn't been sent any letters except the one telling you about the Court proceedings (if so then there are things that can be done to help), or was it that the letters were sent to your preferred address but you couldn't be bothered to pick them up (which means there isn't much of a defence)?

 

[najaB]

I commute into London for work and go through Waterloo to access the tube so I wasnt fare dodging as its impossible for me to get to my destination without a ticket.

I'm guessing that you are trying to say that you need a ticket to pass the barrier at your origin station. That doesn't prevent someone from fare dodging however.

I've arrived at the train station too late to buy a ticket so I've run straight on the train....

As far as SWT (or the court if it gets that far) are concerned that's down to your poor timekeeping and isn't an excuse or valid reason to board without the required ticket.

It was here I approached them to purchase a travelcard for the day and they issued me a fine instead, I still needed to buy a travelcard to get to Holborn as well as get back to Ascot. Its the first train fine I've received.

Just so that you know and can use the correct terms in any correspondence, what you received was either a Penalty Fare or an unpaid fare notice, not a fine.

So I put the fine god knows where carry on and simply forget it exists. There is no reason then as for me not to pay that fine, I understand that forgetting to pay that fine is not acceptable or an excuse.

That's correct - not an excuse.

The letters go to my family house mid November and early December but by the time I finally pick them up I'm out of time and its been passed onto the prosectors. When your not thinking about a fine your not thinking about letters you should be receiving. I'm not coming here saying I have a defence or I've been done wrong. I dont have a defence as to WHY I didnt pay the fine or why I didnt check for post, obviously I could quite easily have done both had I thought too. Simply that with the post going to my parents home I didnt notice.

That's unfortunate, and there's little you can do about it now.

But 7weeks is not a long time between when the first letter was received and it being sent to court (maybe it is in legal terms I've no idea).

Considering that the correct time to pay your fare was before you got on the train, seven weeks is quite generous to sort it out.

If it helps in any way I also have a similar outstanding item (although less pressing) with student loans.

You asked earlier if you had any case if this matter got as far as court, now that you've filled in some of the blanks it appears that you do not. If this goes to court it's almost certain that you'll be found guilty and be required to pay a fine which will certainly be considerably more than the £93.80 originally requested. It's in your best interest to ask the prosecutors if they will agree to set the case aside and settle it between yourselves rather than involving the Court.

 

[319321]

To offer my two cents, rather than give advice:

For what it's worth, I completly believe the OP. I think some on here do not know what it is like to be young, working and renting nowadays.

The OP did not give a false address, they gave an address at which they could be contacted. They picked up their mail over christmas. I have two friends who each have an arrangement with their family that they use their family home for official mail ie banking, credit cards, drivers licenses, passports etc. mainly because they can't trust the kind of people they houseshare with, but another valid reason is that whatever the law says, landlords can chuck people out willy nilly (best shown by the fact that the first time many renters learn that their landlord is bankrupt is when the bailiffs arrive to seize the property, especially it's a shared house and the landlord recieve mail there anyway).

Neither of these friends expect the family to tell them whenever mail arrives, as most of it is useless, as they bank online and if they were expecting a letter that they were actually interested in they would contact the family and get them to let them know when it arrived, other mail just gets left in a pile and dealt with whenever they return home.

The OP gave their address as their DVLA address rather than their actual address not because they were avoiding contact, but because they wanted the address to check out with whatever checks the TOC wanted to make on their identity. The OP was not expecting to actually recieve mail at this address. Like many young people, a penalty fare is not the only thing on the young persons mind - they have to work in a very competitive market and have to take work as on when it arrives.

This was a piece of mail that the OP wasn't aware of, as he had even forgotten that he had a penalty fare that he needed to pay, therefore he would not have especially been looking out for it. The OP missed several letters, because none of them were opened.

With regards to not having a season ticket, many young people can't actually afford them. Other than the big employers, most employers don't offer season ticket loans etc, and most employers don't allow their staff to travel for free. The OP may not know how many days of the week they are working, which locations they may be working at etc, and it may actually be more convienient if the OP could drive or afford a car, but such is the nature of the job market the OP has to take whatever job is on offer.

As soon as the OP realised, he phone up the TOC to make payment. The TOC refused to accept his payment, instead telling him to wait to be prosecuted. Hopefully, the TOC will see sense and the TOC won't prosecute. £90 is a lot of money for the TOC to recover anyway.

 

[pcr1234]

There are a few things here which puzzle me.

1. You "commute into London for work". But buy your tickets daily? Doesn't a season ticket make more sense? Especially when you've made this journey "hundreds of times". (In fact, that is the origin of the word "commuter" - one who makes a commuted payment, rather than paying a daily fee. But I digress.)

2. You say you were issued with a "fine". Only a court can issue a fine. What did you actually receive? Perhaps an unpaid fare notice (ie a request to pay the fare due) plus a penalty fare?

3. You put the "fine" (ie the relevant paperwork) "God knows where". Oh dear!
Do you not realise how this looks to the railway company? They asked for payment ... and heard nothing.

1. I've made this same journey 100s of times but not as a commuter where a Season Ticket is more efficient. Any other time I've bene able to buy a ticket on the train or at the barriers at Waterloo. This occurred on day 6 of my new job and as yet I had not bought a season ticket. Not that this is important.

2. A penalty fare would be accurate I think.

3. I know how it looks and tried to make it clear I know how it looks.

Are you saying you hadn't been sent any letters except the one telling you about the Court proceedings (if so then there are things that can be done to help), or was it that the letters were sent to your preferred address but you couldn't be bothered to pick them up (which means there isn't much of a defence)?

Unfortunately not otherwise that would be my get out of free jail card I guess.

I feel a lot of people still doubt the situation with regards to living in rented accommodation while out of uni and still keeping home address as an address of correspondence, its such common practise especially since so many people go on contracts (both my jobs since uni were contract jobs). I do get post home but stuff such as bank statements and phone bills which I dont need because everything which is important to me is handled online. Which means its not the forefront of my mind to ask for post which gets sent back home. Now if they took an email address...................

I suspected I would have no case to answer in court but wanted to hear peoples opinions on the matter anyway.

If people have advice to offer on any previous experience with out of court settlements and going about that? Things which might be useful or hurtful to say to the prosecutor, which may be relevant to this situation? Or how this is even handled (phone/f2f/post?). Would be really welcome.

 

[FenMan]

Any other time I've bene able to buy a ticket on the train or at the barriers at Waterloo.

Er, I would be extremely careful, as what you have said here would lead plenty of reasonably minded people to think you may be a serial offender. It is far from impossible to beat the barriers at Waterloo when travelling ticketless, as you may possibly know. I shall say no more.

 

[Clip]

Er, I would be extremely careful, as what you have said here would lead plenty of reasonably minded people to think you may be a serial offender. It is far from impossible to beat the barriers at Waterloo when travelling ticketless, as you may possibly know. I shall say no more.

Indeed, especially seeing as the journey the OP was taking included use of the tube which I believe you can still enter at Waterloo without passing through barriers no? Easy to do with a max fare on your Oyster if you are clever enough to juggle 2 of them.

 

[najaB]

Any other time I've bene able to buy a ticket on the train or at the barriers at Waterloo.

Please bear in mind that can also be taken as "Any other time that I got caught I managed to get away with it by buying a ticket on the train or at the barrier." I've no reason to think that you are a serial offender, but the TOC has no reason to think that you are not.

I feel a lot of people still doubt the situation with regards to living in rented accommodation while out of uni and still keeping home address as an address of correspondence...

It doesn't really matter what address you use for correspondence if you don't actually read it when it arrives!

If people have advice to offer on any previous experience with out of court settlements and going about that? Things which might be useful or hurtful to say to the prosecutor, which may be relevant to this situation? Or how this is even handled (phone/f2f/post?). Would be really welcome.

What will likely happen some time in the next few weeks is SWT's prosecutors will write to you inviting you to put forward any reason why they shouldn't proceed with a prosecution. This is your opportunity to suggest that the matter would best be dealt with outside the court system because:

1. It was a stupid mistake to run for the train without first buying a ticket.
2. It will never happen again as you will be buying a season ticket/buying your tickets in advance.
3. You understand that costs them money to deal with people such as yourself who don't buy tickets
4. And that you want to take the opportunity to pay the outstanding Penalty Fare and any additional costs they have incurred.

It is possible to resolve these matters over the phone, but my suggestion is to use either email or postal mail since it is less likely that there will be misunderstanding (you can draft and rewrite a letter) and additionally you have a paper trail.

 

[Clip]

What will likely happen some time in the next few weeks is SWT's prosecutors will write to you inviting you to put forward any reason why they shouldn't proceed with a prosecution. This is your opportunity to suggest that the matter would best be dealt with outside the court system because:
.

Also, please make sure you are using the correct address for them to make contact with you and if the letter goes back to your folks they inform you immediately.

 

[ian959]

The OP gave their address as their DVLA address rather than their actual address not because they were avoiding contact, but because they wanted the address to check out with whatever checks the TOC wanted to make on their identity. The OP was not expecting to actually recieve mail at this address. Like many young people, a penalty fare is not the only thing on the young persons mind - they have to work in a very competitive market and have to take work as on when it arrives.

Pardon? Surely if you give someone an address, that is where you would want any possible mail to go to? If it is genuinely the first time the OP has had a problem, and he has been given an Unpaid Fare Notice, he surely would reasonably expect there to be some follow up, especially if he does not pay the UFN (which I am presuming is what he received since he was not able to make a minimum payment on a PF).

 

[43096]

Er, I would be extremely careful, as what you have said here would lead plenty of reasonably minded people to think you may be a serial offender. It is far from impossible to beat the barriers at Waterloo when travelling ticketless, as you may possibly know. I shall say no more.

Quite. I did have some sympathy with the OP until this point. So, what he's saying is he regularly gets on the train without a ticket, from a station that has a ticket office open most of the day AND at least two ticket machines. I'd say either he tries it on regularly (if caught "I got on at <insert last stop>", or Clapham if at Waterloo) or at best is a disorganised mess in consistently being late.

 

[bb21]

I don't think there is much that can be said at this stage. Since this has now progressed to the prosecutions team, I think you simply need to follow their advice and ring them back a little later when they have your paperwork, and work from there.

Please ignore some of the chats about irrelevant issues. I have done a bit of tidying to ensure that the discussion is more focused on what is really important to your case. In addition I know some of the posters may come across as being fairly blunt, but as you said yourself (and I am glad that you saw it this way), it is likely that the train company would ask the same questions, so it is better to be prepared and consider what your responses would be in those cases, and I think the posts that remain can all serve some purpose in helping you prepare your response to the train company, should any be required.

I don't think there is anything wrong with giving the address of the family home, as long as you still have access to your mail, although I am sure you realise now, not keeping on top of any communication was the real problem, as that meant you missed any opportunity to reach an early settlement for a fairly low sum. There is no reason why the train company would just refuse any further attempt at settlement that I can see, although do be prepared that the sums asked for will likely be higher than what they initially asked for.

I am locking the thread now until there is further progress. Once your paperwork has reached the prosecutions team, or you hear from SWT, if you still wish to seek help on what you could do, then contact any of the forum staff and we will be happy to unlock the thread for further discussion.