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Southern region electrification proposals

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cle

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Interesting point.

It's timetabled semi-fast at 41 mins, and that's with diesel traction. Let's call it 40 with the same stops. St P to Ashford is 36 - that is 1h17 total.

Fastest journey direct I can see is 1h35, so almost 20 minutes quicker! The journey planner even offers 'via Ashford' connections which are quicker with a wait.

So definitely this could be workable. Would be great for Rye too.
 
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LE Greys

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One thing. This thread talks about the southern region. What about Merseyrail. Could it, eventually, go over to OHL?

That depends on the tunnels. Is there room to get OHLE into the Mersey Tunnels? If there is, then this small island of d.c. operation is far more likely to disappear than the big areas down south.
 

tbtc

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That depends on the tunnels. Is there room to get OHLE into the Mersey Tunnels? If there is, then this small island of d.c. operation is far more likely to disappear than the big areas down south.

I expect that the new stock will be dual-voltage, since all new Third Rail EMUs are built with the capability to work off overhead lines.

After that, its not impossible to imagine overhead electrification of Chester - Birkenhead (maybe even Elsemere Port - Helsby, if overhead electrification is less likely to blow the Shell refinery up?) if it needs renewing. Not sure about the tunnels though
 

Peter Mugridge

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After that, its not impossible to imagine overhead electrification of Chester - Birkenhead (maybe even Elsemere Port - Helsby, if overhead electrification is less likely to blow the Shell refinery up?) if it needs renewing. Not sure about the tunnels though

It shouldn't do - the c2c line runs pretty close to Canvey Island without starting any impromptu fireworks displays doesn't it?
 

Hydro

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The only place that I could conceivably see not having 25kV would be inside the refinery/storage area gates themselves, around the areas the tanks are charged/discharged. That would be a big no-no. Electrified reception roads, with a diesel/battery electric shunter taking it into the refinery?
 

robertclark125

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I'd imagine the Mersey railway tunnels, which form the approaches to todays Liverpool Central on the Northern line, as well as the section from James Street to Birkenhead Park and Conway Park on the Wirral, and the CLC route from Liverpool Central to St. Michaels could take OHL. It's the other bits, built in 1977, I'm not sure about.
 

Holly

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I expect that the new stock will be dual-voltage, since all new Third Rail EMUs are built with the capability to work off overhead lines.
After that, its not impossible to imagine overhead electrification of Chester - Birkenhead ...
It is my understanding that existing dual/voltage rolling stock does a switchover between Third Rail and OHLE while stationary (commonly in a station). It is fairly clear why this is the case - it would have involved some serious engineering to provide for switchover at speed.
Third Rail and Overhead electrification each have advantages. Very briefly third rail can have the edge in retrofitting where there are tight clearances - such as retrofitting some tunnels and in some dense urban settings. OHLE elsewhere.

It would like to propose the case that engineering new rolling stock to provide for switchover at speed would be worthwhile, that is to say a paying proposition. Let's look at costs versus benefits.

Costs
involve engineering solutions for automatically raising and lowering pantographs and shoegear. Plus some form of intermediation for the inevitable power surges. Technology makes this kind of thing easier as the years pass. Computer controlled flywheels and trains and purposeful balises spring to mind. A lot of the cost of the present switchover lies in the grounding and isolation work. This could be made a lot cheaper if third rail were converted from 750vDC to AC. Since we are proposing major changes then why not make this change to AC also; actually it may be cheaper overall, certainly in the long run. Maximum supported speed is likely to be an issue also; an engineering compromise must be reached, perhaps in the region of 70mph.

Benefits
Once the price of adopting the new technology has been absorbed there is no longer a time and effort penalty for switching. So because everything happens automatically it becomes no big deal to have short sections of each type of electrification. Having this option available to designers surely lowers the cost of electrification away from the mainlines (where the high cost of rebuilding bridges and tunnels may be justified by the need for high speed).

As to the Southern Railway - it gets to gradually change from Third Rail DC to Third Rail AC, which is probably cheaper in the long run anyway. AC is safer also. As to what voltage (750vAC or 1000vAC or even 530vAC i.e. 750-0-750p-p) is an interesting engineering and financial question with no obvious answer. Not obvious to a retired power engineer anyway.
 

Bald Rick

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I expect that the new stock will be dual-voltage, since all new Third Rail EMUs are built with the capability to work off overhead lines.

Not strictly true. All new third rail EMUs have the *potential* to work off OLE, in that the traction equipment is compatible and there's a pantograph well on one of the trailer cars.

However to give them the capability means an extended trip to works for installation of some heavy duty electrical equiment (transformer, rectifier, HV switchgear) and, not least, a pantograph.
 

thelem

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It would like to propose the case that engineering new rolling stock to provide for switchover at speed would be worthwhile, that is to say a paying proposition. Let's look at costs versus benefits.

You've overlooked one benefit of switching over when stationary.

The switch over process is not 100% reliable, and probably cannot be made 100% reliable. Should a train fail, it's much better to be in a station than in some random piece of track (and switchover locations are chosen with failure scenarios in place - hence extending the OHLE into City Thameslink when the Moorgate branch closed).

I'd have thought a better solution is just to speed up the switchover so that it is shorter than the train's natural dwell time.
 

jopsuk

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It is my understanding that existing dual/voltage rolling stock does a switchover between Third Rail and OHLE while stationary (commonly in a station). It is fairly clear why this is the case - it would have involved some serious engineering to provide for switchover at speed.
Eurostars switched on the move when they left HS1 before the final section to St Pancras was completed. The engineering solution exists.
 

Aictos

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Not strictly true. All new third rail EMUs have the *potential* to work off OLE, in that the traction equipment is compatible and there's a pantograph well on one of the trailer cars.

However to give them the capability means an extended trip to works for installation of some heavy duty electrical equiment (transformer, rectifier, HV switchgear) and, not least, a pantograph.

The 460s don't have a pantograph well though, ;)
 

Holly

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Eurostars switched on the move when ... . The engineering solution exists.
If it is easy, then -
you can mix and match electrification schemes, for example converting to OHLE only where there is a stretch worthy of over 100mph operation (London-Brighton non-stop?). AC on the third-rail would make the engineering easier and perhaps safer.

And conversely, you could 100mph third-rail places like the Severn Tunnel where there is insufficient clearance for OHLE.
 

swt_passenger

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...And conversely, you could 100mph third-rail places like the Severn Tunnel where there is insufficient clearance for OHLE.

There is NO PROBLEM with electrification clearance in the Severn Tunnel. It is not an issue at all.
 

anthony263

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There is NO PROBLEM with electrification clearance in the Severn Tunnel. It is not an issue at all.

Agreed Network rail have inspected the tunnel and said Overhead wiring would be ok to install, in fact according to some it would be easier than the bakerloo line tunnels under the thames.

As for using 3rd rail through the severn tunnel, that would not be a good idea considering how much water soometimes leakes into the tunnel.
 

LE Greys

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Agreed Network rail have inspected the tunnel and said Overhead wiring would be ok to install, in fact according to some it would be easier than the bakerloo line tunnels under the thames.

As for using 3rd rail through the severn tunnel, that would not be a good idea considering how much water soometimes leakes into the tunnel.

Overhead presumably being able to deal with this by something resembling the 'wire umbrella' in the Ipswich Tunnel.
 
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