Southeastern Prosecusion

[maximum]

Hi,
I'm seeking for advice on how to respond to South eastern train. I got caution for travelling with a super off peak ticket from Kent to London Terminal. I purchased a Network rail card In July 2024 and I've been buying a super off peak return from Kent to London Terminal quite regularly while travelling at peak time. Note quite often my ticket was checked by rail staff and nobody ever said anything to me about my ticket was incorrect. I've been traveling this route since October 2015 until now and I always paid the correct fare until last year in July when I purchase a Network rail card and started buying a super off peak ticket on the south eastern APP. When I was caution I did say that I understand what I was doing was wrong and I'm genuinely happy to pay any fares required, any penalty fine and any admin cost. I was wondering If this can be settle out of court. Below is the letter I received from South eastern.

Southeastern is committed to ensuring all journeys are paid out of fairness to all passengers.

On 15 January 2025 you gave your details and were questioned by a member of rail staff with regard to an incident
on Southeastern. Southeastern is reviewing your case and may consider pursuing a prosecution.

We invite you to respond with any comments about the incident. Please complete in full the second page of this
letter, attaching any comments and send it to the above address within 21 days. Please respond to the address or the
email given below.
You can also contact the prosecutions team at: Prosecutions.team@southeasternrailway.co.uk

Please be aware that Southeastern uses Body worn video, CCTV and various software packages to combat fraudulent travel.

You may wish to seek independent legal advice on the information contained in this letter.

Failure to respond to this letter will lead to the matter being progressed without further notification. If we do write to you again, we may seek a contribution to our costs of recovering the amount owed.

Yours sincerely,
Below is what I'm thinking to write back.

Dear Sir/ Madam,

I am writing about the incident on 15th January 2025 when I made a stupid mistake and foolishly bought a non-valid ticket from Marden to London terminal. It was explained to me by the Rail staff member on the day of 15th January 2025 that I was paying the incorrect fare. Using Super off-peak ticket with my Network rail card. On the same day, at the time of the caution I purchased the correct fare. I have since been paying the correct fare for my return journey from Marden to London Terminal from the 15th January 2025 until now and I promise you to carry on doing the same.

I’m not trying to make any excuses, and I fully acknowledge my mistake, and I understand that I’m solely responsible to have a valid ticket while travelling. I also spoke to Southeastern staff member since that incident to make sure I understand what fare I should purchase.


I acknowledge this was a stupid mistake. It was a severe lapse of judgement from me. I would like to offer my sincerest apologies for any financial and administrative trouble you may have received.

I sincerely feel terrible and I’m sorry for this mistake. I can ensure that I will always have a valid ticket going forward. I always paid the correct fare since I have been using the train from June 2010 until October 2014 (from St Mary Cray station to Elephant and Castle). Then from October 2015 until now (from Marden Station to London Terminal) During that period my ticket was checked several times and never I received a penalty fare or I was paying any incorrect fare.

I realise fare evasion costs the taxpayer millions of pounds every year and I am sorry to have contributed to that. I really hope that this error on my behalf doesn’t result in criminal prosecutions. As such I want to make this right and I am more than happy to cover the cost of the original ticket plus any administrative costs you may have incurred.

I admitted the same on 15th January 2025 to the rail staff that I totally trust her judgement and understand that the mistake was mine.


Lastly, I would like to apologise again for any trouble my actions may have caused. I hope that from this you can see I have learnt from mistake and that I well and truly are sorry. As mentioned, before I would be grateful if we could please settle this matter out of court. I would be more than happy to oblige with the process.

Yours sincerely

 

[AlterEgo]

Is the only problem that the Super Off Peak fare was being used at the wrong time (with railcard I know, but this does not change the material fact)? The ticket otherwise was purchased prior to travel, and covered the full journey?

You should have been charged an excess fare for this.

What, exactly, did you "admit" to the member of staff who stopped you?
Your rights under the National Rail Conditions of Travel:

9.5 Where you:

9.5.1 are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak” Ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are travelling; or

9.5.2 are using a route for which your Ticket is not valid; or

9.5.3 break your journey when you are not permitted to do so
you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

 

[Haywain]

Is the only problem that the Super Off Peak fare was being used at the wrong time (with railcard I know, but this does not change the material fact)? The ticket otherwise was purchased prior to travel, and covered the full journey?

You should have been charged an excess fare for this.

What, exactly, did you "admit" to the member of staff who stopped you?
Your rights under the National Rail Conditions of Travel:

I'm not convinced that, having discovered that this is not a one-off incident, the NRCoT is a defence against a prosecution.

 

[maximum]

Is the only problem that the Super Off Peak fare was being used at the wrong time (with railcard I know, but this does not change the material fact)? The ticket otherwise was purchased prior to travel, and covered the full journey?

You should have been charged an excess fare for this.

What, exactly, did you "admit" to the member of staff who stopped you?
Your rights under the National Rail Conditions of Travel:

Hi, Thank you for the response. I purchased my ticket prior to travel and it did covered the full journey. But I purchased Supper Off peak ticket while travelling at peak. I admitted to the rail staff that I was purchasing the wrong ticket that I was confused about the discount I could get with the Network rail card. I thought the Network rail card gave me discounted travel.

What I should have bought is
Anytime day Single from Marden to London Terminal which cost £26.50
And Super off peak return London Terminal to Marden which cost £13.65
Total I should be paying is £40.15


Instead I was only buying Super off peak return London Terminal to Marden which cost £13.65

My situation is under the below category.

9.5.1 are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak” Ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are travelling

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi, Thank you for the response. I purchased my ticket prior to travel and it did covered the full journey. But I purchased Supper Off peak ticket while travelling at peak. I admitted to the rail staff that I was purchasing the wrong ticket that I was confused about the discount I could get with the Network rail card. I thought the Network rail card gave me discounted travel.

What I should have bought is
Anytime day Single from Marden to London Terminal which cost £26.50
And Super off peak return London Terminal to Marden which cost £13.65
Total I should be paying is £40.15


Instead I was only buying Super off peak return London Terminal to Marden which cost £13.65

My situation is under the below category.

9.5.1 are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak” Ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are travelling

What time of day did you travel? Which train id you arrive on? The Network Railcard does give discounts on a Super Off Peak Return but cannot be used before 10am. Regardless, the disposal for this is to charge an excess fare, as per the contract you made with the railway when you bought the ticket.

Did you admit to doing this many times? Did you admit to intending to evade the fare? These are really important questions because you were under no obligation to answer anything other than giving your name and address, and if you have admitted to these things you have made things very difficult for yourself.

 

[maximum]

I travel at peak time 08:22AM and arrived around 09:30AM to London Terminal. I did not realise that Super off peck started at 10AM. I know I should have checked and known that. I did say I have been doing that since July 2024 but my intention was never to evade fare. I got confused with the Network rail card and the discount. I never purchased 2 different tickets before a single to London then a return from London to Marden and actually not using the return journey back. My ticket was checked several time in the train since July 2024 and nobody said anything to me in the train. Even on the day of the caution a staff member in the train checked my ticket and did not say anything. I've been travelling since 2010 and I always paid the correct fare. In the past I even went to the ticket office to buy a ticket because the office was closed and the ticket machine was not working. I could have easily not to do that and get away, Even when I missed my stop I voluntary went an pay for any extra fare. I never admitted that I intended to evade fare and it was never my intention to evade fare.

I told the rail staff that I'm happy all the fares that I'm liable to pay any penalties and admin cost.

 

[AlterEgo]

Deeply unwise of you to have admitted to doing this for many months, but it’s done now. Next time you get stopped and out under caution, say nothing. You’re actually not guilty of an offence here because the disposal is to pay an excess fare each time, but your willingness to pay a penalty implies you have been doing something wrong and may be construed as intent regardless of whatever else you said.

Did you offer to pay the difference there and then? As in - offer payment?

 

[maximum]

Now thinking about it I only said that I'm happy to pay the fare difference I never admitted to pay a fine. On the day I did ask shall pay the fare I'm supposed to but the rail staff advice me against doing so. I insisted I still pay the fare on the South eastern app before leaving the station. The rail staff did not take any payment from me. What do you think of my letter? Should I make any adjustment before sending to them? Also do you think I'll be able to settle out of court?

 

[AlterEgo]

Now thinking about it I only said that I'm happy to pay the fare difference I never admitted to pay a fine. On the day I did ask shall pay the fare I'm supposed to but the rail staff advice me against doing so. I insisted I still pay the fare on the South eastern app before leaving the station. The rail staff did not take any payment from me. What do you think of my letter? Should I make any adjustment before sending to them? Also do you think I'll be able to settle out of court?

I would be minded to apologise for not having the correct ticket that day and offer to pay the excess fare, drawing their attention to the National Rail Conditions of Travel (9.5.1.) and explaining this is the correct way to rectify the ticket being used at a time at which it was not valid. You may wish to draw their attention to this: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...n-Rail-Railcard-prosecutions-drops-cases.html

 

[maximum]

Are you saying I should not mention previous tickets? Will they not check all my previous tickets. As I said I'm happy to pay the excess fare for any past tickets.

 

[AlterEgo]

Are you saying I should not mention previous tickets? Will they not check all my previous tickets. As I said I'm happy to pay the excess fare for any past tickets.

No. Don’t mention past tickets. Southeastern might check, or they might use your admission against you, but at the moment they are only looking for your comments about the time you were stopped.

 

[maximum]

Have you seen cases similar to mine and would you know how often South Eastern take people to court?

 

[AlterEgo]

There are very few cases like yours where you have a defence. You should have been charged an excess fare to regularise your ticket, as per the National Rail Conditions of Travel. You should offer to pay the excess fare, and only the excess fare, in your reply; that is what is due. You should strictly limit your comments to the time you were stopped, such as:

"Thank you for your letter of X date.

I was stopped by your revenue protection inspector at X who informed me my ticket was invalid as it was a time restricted ticket being used at a time at which it was not valid.

In line with the National Rail Conditions of Travel 9.5.1 (quote it to them!), I understand you will charge me the difference in fares.

I enclose this in the form of a cheque."

And that is it. That is all you should say at this stage. You interests are best served by saying as little as possible.

 

[John R]

Instead of "I understand you will charge me the difference in fares" I would say:-

I have since been made aware of the National Rail Conditions of Travel, and in particular 9.5.1 (quote it), and understand that the correct remedy was to have charged me the difference in fares at the time, rather than refer me for prosecution.

I am of course happy to pay the correct fare due, if you can advise me of the amount payable and how to make payment.

 

[maximum]

First of all thank you all for your time and advices. Below is what looking to respond. Please let me know if you think I should make any further changes.

Dear Sir/ Madam,

Thank you for you letter on the 14th February 2025.

I was stopped by your rail staff member on the 15th January 2025 at London Canon Street station. The rail staff informed me that my ticket was not valid as it was a time restricted ticket being used at a time it was not valid. For the journey from Marden station to London Terminal.

I have been made aware of the National Rail Conditions of Travel, and in particular 9.5.1.

9.5.1 are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak” Ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are travelling

https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...572570/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel.pdf

I’m sorry for the mistake I made and I immediately paid the correct fare on the day 15th January 2025. See my proof of the correct ticket purchased below.

(I've put a screenshot of my correct ticket that purchased on the day of the incident which is anytime day single Marden to London Terminal)

I am off course happy to pay any other admin cost required.

Yours sincerely

 

[AlterEgo]

First of all thank you all for your time and advices. Below is what looking to respond. Please let me know if you think I should make any further changes.

Dear Sir/ Madam,

Thank you for you letter on the 14th February 2025.

I was stopped by your rail staff member on the 15th January 2025 at London Canon Street station. The rail staff informed me that my ticket was not valid as it was a time restricted ticket being used at a time it was not valid. For the journey from Marden station to London Terminal.

I have been made aware of the National Rail Conditions of Travel, and in particular 9.5.1.

9.5.1 are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak” Ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are travelling

https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...572570/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel.pdf

You need to quote the whole Condition and explain that the Condition says that you *will* be charged an excess fare; that is the entitlement you had.

I’m sorry for the mistake I made and I immediately paid the correct fare on the day 15th January 2025. See my proof of the correct ticket purchased below.

(I've put a screenshot of my correct ticket that purchased on the day of the incident which is anytime day single Marden to London Terminal)

Don't include this, you actually have done nothing wrong, as is being repeatedly explained.

You may, without penalty, board a train with a time restricted ticket, and regularise it by paying the excess up to the proper fare.

I am off course happy to pay any other admin cost required.

No! Your assertion is that they should have charged you the excess fare. Offer to pay that, and nothing else. Why are you offering to pay their admin costs? Those are costs they've incurred because they did the wrong thing by reporting you instead of, you know, just selling the excess fare.

 

[maximum]

Below is how I've re-worded what do you think?

Dear Sir/ Madam,

Thank you for you letter on the 14th February 2025.

I was stopped by your rail staff member on the 15th January 2025 at London Canon Street station. The rail staff informed me that my ticket was not valid as it was a time restricted ticket being used at a time it was not valid. For the journey from Marden station to London Terminal.

I have been made aware of the National Rail Conditions of Travel, and in particular section 9.5.1. on Page 9.

https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...3/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel_2024.pdf


[

9. Travelling Without a Valid Ticket

9.5 Where you:

9.5.1 are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak” Ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are travelling

“You will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.”

}

The above condition says that I will be charged the difference between the fare I have paid and this the is the entitlement I have.

On the day I was question I immediately paid the correct fare on 15th January 2025. See ticket below my ticket as proof of purchase.

Yours sincerely

 

[AlterEgo]

Below is how I've re-worded what do you think?

Dear Sir/ Madam,

Thank you for you letter on the 14th February 2025.

I was stopped by your rail staff member on the 15th January 2025 at London Canon Street station. The rail staff informed me that my ticket was not valid as it was a time restricted ticket being used at a time it was not valid. For the journey from Marden station to London Terminal.

I have been made aware of the National Rail Conditions of Travel, and in particular section 9.5.1. on Page 9.

https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...3/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel_2024.pdf


[

9. Travelling Without a Valid Ticket

9.5 Where you:

9.5.1 are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak” Ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are travelling

“You will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.”

}

The above condition says that I will be charged the difference between the fare I have paid and this the is the entitlement I have.

On the day I was question I immediately paid the correct fare on 15th January 2025. See ticket below my ticket as proof of purchase.

Don't mention having bought a new ticket. This makes it look like you feel you're sort of guilty, if you seem happy with having bought this and spent a load of extra money because you had the "wrong ticket". You were only to have paid the *excess*, that is the difference up to it. You ought to be saying that you are happy to be charged the excess in line with your rights under the NRCoT, something you were not allowed to do at the time, and something which you are offering to do so once again.

Say something like "The above condition says that I will be charged the difference between the fare I have paid and the lowest priced valid ticket. I have calculated that this is (amount), and enclose a cheque/postal order (delete as appropriate) for this amount which I trust concludes the matter"

Cannon Street has two Ns, your ticketed destination was London Terminals (with an S)

 

[maximum]

Just one thing who do I address the cheque to? Also in the letter they send me it says DO NOT SEND ANY PAYMENTS TO THIS OFFICE

 

[AlterEgo]

Just one thing who do I address the cheque to? Also in the letter they send me it says DO NOT SEND ANY PAYMENTS TO THIS OFFICE

Send it anyway; make it out to SE TRAINS LIMITED (their official company name). It’s important you offer them payment with the letter, as it shows clear intent to pay the excess fare. It’s up to them if they bank the cheque or not. It’s also important you make clear that if they accept payment they do so on condition that it settles your obligation to them.

 

[maximum]

Ok thanks for the information. I'll send them a cheque as per your advice

 

[WesternLancer]

Ok thanks for the information. I'll send them a cheque as per your advice

Keep a photo of the cheque you send.

 

[maximum]

Hello Everyone,

First of all thank you everyone for your time and help on this forum.

Today I've received a response from South Eastern rail see below.

PAYMENT RECEIPT
We have received your payment as below:
Date and time of Payment: XX Feb 2025
Total Paid: £26.50

As Payment has now been received in full, this matter is now closed.

To avoid being reported in the future, please ensure you hold a valid ticket or permit for travel, for your entire journey before you board the train.

In accordance with data protection laws and our legiitimate interests, we have recoded this incident and your personal details which will be on file. For more information how we process your data, please refer to our Privacy Policy at www.southeasternraillway.co.uk/privacy-notice-and-cookies/privacy-policy

Your Sincerely,

I have learnt a valuable lesson and I ought to be more careful in the future.

Strange in the original letter it said in capital DO NOT SEND ANY PAYMENTS TO THIS OFFICE but they still took the payment. I'm not complaining and I'm very happy with the outcome. Am I correct to say this matter is now closed?

Many thanks

 

[notmyrealname]

That's good news and a relief for you, I should think. Thank you for letting us know.

 

[MotCO]

That's a good outcome. Please remember to retain all your correspondence for a number of years in case there is any further query.

 

[AlterEgo]

This is the correct outcome; payment of the excess fare as the customer was entitled to by law.

The bare minimum, although one may argue less than that - they do not have the right to retain the customer's data for this and the customer may legitimately ask for it to be deleted. They paid an excess fare, that's all.