Southeastern - appeals advice

[wrd78750]

I've received a Penalty Fare Notice from Southeastern this morning, having made a genuine error of catching an earlier train than I'd booked on an Advance Single.

From: Tonbridge
To: London Bridge
Operator: Southeastern
Advance ticket time of departure: 08:17
Actual train taken: 07:47
Penalty amount due: £120.40 (or £70.40 early payment)

I wasn't given the option to get off at the next station (as it would've been my destination station) or buy a new ticket/pay the difference (which I would've been happy to do) - is that grounds for an appeal?

The notice also has the 'Where' as Orpington, but this wasn't a station on the route I took - does that in any way invalidate the notice?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I've received a Penalty Fare Notice from Southeastern this morning, having made a genuine error of catching an earlier train than I'd booked on an Advance Single.

From: Tonbridge
To: London Bridge
Operator: Southeastern
Advance ticket time of departure: 08:17
Actual train taken: 07:47
Penalty amount due: £120.40 (or £70.40 early payment)

I wasn't given the option to get off at the next station (as it would've been my destination station) or buy a new ticket/pay the difference (which I would've been happy to do) - is that grounds for an appeal?

The notice also has the 'Where' as Orpington, but this wasn't a station on the route I took - does that in any way invalidate the notice?

Welcome to the forum!

There will be experts along shortly who may be able to suggest technical challenges to the validity of the penalty fare notice, but it seems to me that you've got no challenge on the grounds you're suggesting:

- there's no right to just end your journey at the next station without penalty
- neither is there a right to buy a new ticket/pay the difference - a penalty fare is the ticket that the railway are entitled to sell in this situation
- as you were going to be getting off at the next stop, there's no issue about whether a penalty fare was offered to the right station
- rather more tentatively, I don't think that an error in the 'Where' will invalidate the penalty fare

There are potentially technical challenges to the penalty fare regime, but they are not easy to demonstrate and will certainly be time consuming and potentially stressful to take forward. Unless you are particularly time rich and cash poor, my expectation would be that your best bet would be to pay the £70.40 promptly, learn the lesson about boarding the train that your ticket is valid for, and move on.

 

[WesternLancer]

Welcome to the forum!

There will be experts along shortly who may be able to suggest technical challenges to the validity of the penalty fare notice, but it seems to me that you've got no challenge on the grounds you're suggesting:

- there's no right to just end your journey at the next station without penalty
- neither is there a right to buy a new ticket/pay the difference - a penalty fare is the ticket that the railway are entitled to sell in this situation
- as you were going to be getting off at the next stop, there's no issue about whether a penalty fare was offered to the right station
- rather more tentatively, I don't think that an error in the 'Where' will invalidate the penalty fare

There are potentially technical challenges to the penalty fare regime, but they are not easy to demonstrate and will certainly be time consuming and potentially stressful to take forward. Unless you are particularly time rich and cash poor, my expectation would be that your best bet would be to pay the £70.40 promptly, learn the lesson about boarding the train that your ticket is valid for, and move on.

If you opt to end your journey at the next station* would it not reduce the £20.40 element of the charge (assuming the train stopped at another station where the fare from the origin point would be lower)?

Since there are some wider advantages to appealing (buys time to save the money up whilst the sum asked for gets frozen, prevent possible prosecution) it may be worth the OP Appealing on such grounds as suggested in any case.

*EDIT - I see the 07.47 from Tonbridge to London only stops at Sevenoaks, so unless the OP was issued with the Penalty Fare (PF) before the train stopped at Sevenoaks at 07.57 they could not have been given the option of alighting at the next station in any case. To @wrd78750 - what time was the PF issued to you and was this before or after the Sevenoaks stop? I assume the time issued is on whatever paperwork you were given.

I see Orpington is a station on the route, just not one the trains stops at - so it may be that the staff member is allowed to indicate that the PF was issued whilst passing through there, which was at 08.05. Does that tally with the time on the PF?

I assume this is the train you were on:

Code: 2W91, Ashford to Cannon Street

Realtime Trains | 2W91 0714 Ashford International to London Cannon Street | 05/03/2024

Real-time train running information for 2W91 0714 departure from Ashford International to London Cannon Street on 05/03/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[wrd78750]

If you opt to end your journey at the next station* would it not reduce the £20.40 element of the charge (assuming the train stopped at another station where the fare from the origin point would be lower)?

Since there are some wider advantages to appealing (buys time to save the money up whilst the sum asked for gets frozen, prevent possible prosecution) it may be worth the OP Appealing on such grounds as suggested in any case.

*EDIT - I see the 07.47 from Tonbridge to London only stops at Sevenoaks, so unless the OP was issued with the Penalty Fare (PF) before the train stopped at Sevenoaks at 07.57 they could not have been given the option of alighting at the next station in any case. To @wrd78750 - what time was the PF issued to you and was this before or after the Sevenoaks stop? I assume the time issued is on whatever paperwork you were given.

I see Orpington is a station on the route, just not one the trains stops at - so it may be that the staff member is allowed to indicate that the PF was issued whilst passing through there, which was at 08.05. Does that tally with the time on the PF?

I assume this is the train you were on:

Code: 2W91, Ashford to Cannon Street

Realtime Trains | 2W91 0714 Ashford International to London Cannon Street | 05/03/2024

Real-time train running information for 2W91 0714 departure from Ashford International to London Cannon Street on 05/03/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Thanks for your reply. The PF was issued at 08:15, so had passed Sevenoaks by that point and with London Bridge as the next station.

Before being issued with a PF, should I not have been given an option to purchase a new ticket? I have seen countless people over the years purchase a ticket after they've boarded the train, so struggling to understand why the PF would be the first action taken against someone who had a ticket (but admittedly for a later train). I spoke to a Revenue Protection Officer at London Bridge who suggested I could try appealing on the ground that they didn't give me the option to find a conductor on the train to get a refund and buy a new ticket.

 

[Wolfie]

Thanks for your reply. The PF was issued at 08:15, so had passed Sevenoaks by that point and with London Bridge as the next station.

Before being issued with a PF, should I not have been given an option to purchase a new ticket? I have seen countless people over the years purchase a ticket after they've boarded the train, so struggling to understand why the PF would be the first action taken against someone who had a ticket (but admittedly for a later train). I spoke to a Revenue Protection Officer at London Bridge who suggested I could try appealing on the ground that they didn't give me the option to find a conductor on the train to get a refund and buy a new ticket.

Southeastern reminds customers to buy before they board

From Monday 23 January the penalty fare for travelling without a ticket or the wrong ticket on Southeastern trains will increase to £100 plus the fare Payment reduced to £50 plus the cost of a single journey if paid within 21 days The change across all train operators will be the first increase...

newsroom.southeasternrailway.co.uk

Given that Southeastern operate penalty fares the option to pay on the train has not existed for many years, something that they publicly state - see above. Practically, given that most of their services are driver only operated (i.e. there is no guard), that has to be the case.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for your reply. The PF was issued at 08:15, so had passed Sevenoaks by that point and with London Bridge as the next station.

Before being issued with a PF, should I not have been given an option to purchase a new ticket? I have seen countless people over the years purchase a ticket after they've boarded the train, so struggling to understand why the PF would be the first action taken against someone who had a ticket (but admittedly for a later train). I spoke to a Revenue Protection Officer at London Bridge who suggested I could try appealing on the ground that they didn't give me the option to find a conductor on the train to get a refund and buy a new ticket.

No - as mentioned, that option does not exist if you are in a Penalty Fare area, but it's made confusing for people because not all rail staff can issue Penalty Fares (not trained / authorised to do so) so some guards can sell tickets on board to people, but the same situation could arise the next day and you get a Penalty Fare...

There are exemptions if no ticket issuing facilities (ticket office closed or broken ticket machine for example) are available at your station of boarding - you are not, for example, required to buy a ticket on your phone in such situations.

The logic of not being able to buy a new ticket being no one would bother buying a correct ticket unless they were checked so the PF is in part designed to be punitive. They would just buy the cheapest ticket they could get for any train, or no ticket at all, and only pay the correct fare if challenged at a check, which may people know do not happen every day. This is especially pertinent on trains that have driver only operation and no one to check tickets on every train after every stop.

As mentioned above - there are other reasons to submit an Appeal but it would seem unlikely to be successful, so it may be simpler to just pay the sum demanded and get the prompt payment discount. You may want to watch the thread for 24 hours to see if other views are posted.

Sorry, but don't think I can convey more helpful info.

 

[RobertsN]

Woudn't an excess fare have been more appropriate?

 

[pedr]

Woudn't an excess fare have been more appropriate?

An Advance Single ticket is not a ticket relevant to travel on any other service. There is no difference between having an Advance Single ticket for the wrong train and having no ticket at all.

A Penalty Fare is one of the options open to railway staff who encounter someone with an Advance ticket for the wrong train. On services with few or no on-board staff whose job includes selling tickets, a Penalty Fare or the allegation of boarding a train without a valid ticket contrary to the Railway Byelaws is much more likely than a requirement to purchase a new flexible ticket.

 

[island]

Based on the information given it appears the Penalty Fare has been correctly issued.

 

[wrd78750]

Thanks everyone for your responses. If I do appeal, does the early payment period get paused while it's under review? I've had a look on the Southeastern website but can't seem to see anything confirming this

 

[Pushpit]

I am not seeing a basis for the appeal yet. That's a high frequency route and you got on a train that ran on time a full 30 minutes before the booked train, which also ran on time, and several intermediate trains rolled through in between. Perhaps if you could explain the "genuine error" from post 1 then you would get more pointers. Looking for technical grounds for appeal seems odd.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks everyone for your responses. If I do appeal, does the early payment period get paused while it's under review? I've had a look on the Southeastern website but can't seem to see anything confirming this

Yes, it does 'stop the clock' so you can still get the prompt payment discount as I understand it - whilst the appeal is considered - right up through all 3 appeal stages. The other benefit of an Appeal is that it prevents the possibility for being prosecuted for a ticket error (slim chance of that in this case I suspect, but it can be of help)

However, for you to put the effort into appealing you probably do need to have good grounds to do so to have any chance of winning, but that is not to say you can't try...

 

[Watershed]

I am not seeing a basis for the appeal yet. That's a high frequency route and you got on a train that ran on time a full 30 minutes before the booked train, which also ran on time, and several intermediate trains rolled through in between. Perhaps if you could explain the "genuine error" from post 1 then you would get more pointers. Looking for technical grounds for appeal seems odd.

Well, at the end of the day it is a fairly significant penalty for getting on the wrong train. It's understandable that the OP would want to reduce their liability, even if only on grounds that are technical or legal rather than moral.

A lot of TOCs are sloppy in the way they handle signage or issuing procedures for PFs, and the rules require absolute compliance for a PF to be valid, so I don't think the OP is out of line for wanting to pursue that avenue.

Given that the Penalty Fare prima facie appears to be correctly issued, the other possible ground of appeal would be on the basis of non-compliant signage at Tonbridge. Not having been there for several years, I can't comment on what signage is (or isn't) present, but the OP may be able to confirm this based on personal experience.

A possible signage appeal could be along the lines set out in this post (obviously the "compelling reasons" argument is unlikely to apply here).

 

[island]

Given that the Penalty Fare prima facie appears to be correctly issued, the other possible ground of appeal would be on the basis of non-compliant signage at Tonbridge. Not having been there for several years, I can't comment on what signage is (or isn't) present, but the OP may be able to confirm this based on personal experience.

I'm there on Tuesday and will have a look.

 

[Pushpit]

Given that the Penalty Fare prima facie appears to be correctly issued, the other possible ground of appeal would be on the basis of non-compliant signage at Tonbridge. Not having been there for several years, I can't comment on what signage is (or isn't) present, but the OP may be able to confirm this based on personal experience.

Well, the reason for my previous reply was to do with the fact that the 08:17 seems, on a brief and unscientific survey, to be unusual in offering £10 Advance tickets rather than the usual £20 Anytimes. Trains before and after don't seem to offer Advance, but the 08:17 is a slightly slower service. The 07:47 wasn't offering me an Advance, nor the 4 LBG services after it, or any other service until 08:50. Now the OP says their being on the wrong train was a genuine error, so maybe I'm missing something here. But then of course it would make total sense to appeal the Penalty Fare......

 

[Hadders]

The OP is perfectly entitled to appeal the Penalty Fare, even if on the face of it there do not appear to be grounds to appeal.

There are two practical reasons why they might want to appeal:

1. An appeal 'stops the clock' on the time allowed for the discounted amount which means the OP has a bit longer to find the money
2. Once appealed the train company is legally barred from prosecuting.

 

[Greyman1]

Thanks for your reply. The PF was issued at 08:15, so had passed Sevenoaks by that point and with London Bridge as the next station.

Before being issued with a PF, should I not have been given an option to purchase a new ticket? I have seen countless people over the years purchase a ticket after they've boarded the train, so struggling to understand why the PF would be the first action taken against someone who had a ticket (but admittedly for a later train). I spoke to a Revenue Protection Officer at London Bridge who suggested I could try appealing on the ground that they didn't give me the option to find a conductor on the train to get a refund and buy a new ticket.

You need to have purchased the right ticket for that service before boarding. I expect the PF has been noted as Orpington for the 'where' as that's would have been the nearest station on the line of route that the inspector was on.

SE as far as I am aware do not offer the opportunity to purchase from their inspectors. Conductors (if operating without Revenue staff) will sell you a ticket as this is all they are authorised to do. Revenue staff have the power to penalty you, unfortunately in this case, you were spoken to by one of them.
You can try to appeal and state you made a genuine error, but as you are responsible for getting on the earlier train, I wouldn't hold my breath, mainly as 100s of people say the same thing and they are pretty robust when applying the National Conditions of Travel.
Hope this is in some way helpful.