Should there be more Sail/Rail services to Ireland?

[berneyarms]

No, it's not. But how much of that support is predicated on more flights to the UK, versus more flights to the rest of the world?

It’s partially predicated on Dublin becoming a major international hub airport to North America, a massive element of which is the feeder flights from UK regional airports.

Are you suggesting that they should take a train and ferry too?

But the main element driving it is still passengers starting and ending their journeys in Dublin and flights to/from the UK remain a main part of that.

 

[najaB]

should think it's 100% about it not being profitable during winter months.

Oh, I know that. The 60/40 v 40/60 comment was a tongue in cheek way of saying that either demand is low because of the weather or the weather causes the demand to be low. Either way, the demand just isn't there.

 

[najaB]

It’s partially predicated on Dublin becoming a major international hub airport to North America, a massive element of which is the feeder flights from UK regional airports.

Which isn't actually likely to be successful - Madrid, Frankfurt and Brussels are way ahead in the secondary hub race, and then you've the existing megahubs in Paris, London and Amsterdam. All of which have something that Dublin does not: a major player airline based there.

Don't get me wrong, Aer Lingus is a fine airline but IAG is never going to grow it to the point that it rivals BA or Iberian.

 

[mmh]

A practical alternative that would save a reasonable amount of CO2 would be flying from a closer airport. Assuming HS2 gets built to Manchester airport it'll only be an hour from central London and would use about a third less fuel than flying from Heathrow. Liverpool's airport is even closer to Dublin and at least in theory not that hard to get high-speed trains to. A shorter trip would also make electric aircraft more feasible.

Nobody is going to get a train to Manchester from London to get a plane to Dublin, HS2 or not. Slower (a lot slower), less convenient, more expensive.

 

[krus_aragon]

Nobody is going to get a train to Manchester from London to get a plane to Dublin, HS2 or not. Slower (a lot slower), less convenient, more expensive.

I won't get a train to Manchester to get a plane to Dublin, but that's because I'm halfway between the two.

(Yes, I know I'm not a large or typical portion of the market.)

 

[berneyarms]

Which isn't actually likely to be successful - Madrid, Frankfurt and Brussels are way ahead in the secondary hub race, and then you've the existing megahubs in Paris, London and Amsterdam. All of which have something that Dublin does not: a major player airline based there.

Don't get me wrong, Aer Lingus is a fine airline but IAG is never going to grow it to the point that it rivals BA or Iberian.

Actually you’re completely wrong about that.

It actually already is proving successful. The numbers transiting Dublin to/from North America have grown exponentially.

Aer Lingus have already said that they are targeting 50% of their entire business to be from transit traffic.

Their fleet expansion programme is seeing more North American flights and destinations added every year and IAG is backing that to the hilt.

 

[mmh]

I won't get a train to Manchester to get a plane to Dublin, but that's because I'm halfway between the two.

(Yes, I know I'm not a large or typical portion of the market.)

Oh I dunno, I think that sums it up well

Many years ago I went from Llandudno Junction to London via a plane from Manchester to London (City Airport, I think)

The WCML was completely shut for some reason, and if I remember right the alternative was down to Newport for a train to Paddington.

I should have just got the train. This idea that people will travel half way across the country to save ten or whatever minutes flying time sounds like cloud cuckoo land to me!

 

[najaB]

Their fleet expansion programme is seeing more North American flights and destinations added every year and IAG is backing that to the hilt.

Did I say that IAG won't expand Aer Lingus?

 

[berneyarms]

Did I say that IAG won't expand Aer Lingus?

No you said that the expansion of Dublin as a hub to North America would not be a success.

I’m saying that it already is, and IAG is committed to it. The rollout of A321LR aircraft on North American routes is starting and later in the Autumn they will continue onto European & London routes as feeder flights offering full business class seats.

I think in your earlier post you misunderstood the emphasis I placed - Dublin is being developed by Aer Lingus as a major hub for North American destinations - it isn’t about all the other destinations that the hubs you quoted serve.

That development (helped by having US CBP clearance in both Dublin and Shannon) is progressing significantly with Aer Lingus, Aer Lingus Regional, British Airways and Flybe all feeding into those EI flights from UK airports.

Like it or not, the flights from the UK to Ireland aren’t going to be diminishing anytime soon.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Just a couple of points in response to recent postings.

1. People refer to being "realistic" - I think that being desperately keen for there to still be a habitable ecosystem in a few decades' time is a kind of realism.

2. So many of the arguments for not stopping most plane travel are fatalistic. It's perfectly possible to imagine a future where most people accept that fast travel over long distances just isn't feasible, and so life has to be organised to take that into account. Claiming that something is impossible is often just a way of saying that you don't want it to happen and of encouraging it not to happen.

 

[squizzler]

You do realise that there are plenty of alternatives to Ryanair when flying to/from Ireland.

The repeated references to Ryanair here in this thread as if they’re the only option are a tad annoying.

I haven’t used that airline in 30 years and I’m a regular traveller through Dublin airport.

Ryanair are a good straw man for those of us against air travel: they represent a 1970s-esque caricature of indifferent, take-it-or leave-it 'customer service', petty charges for stuff that people rightly expect to be included and a militant workforce against which to pitch the pleasant and relaxing alternative of train and packet.

 

[berneyarms]

Ryanair are a good straw man for those of us against air travel: they represent a 1970s-esque caricature of indifferent, take-it-or leave-it 'customer service', petty charges that bring to mind those coin meters installed in fleapit hotels and a militant workforce against which to pitch the pleasant and relaxing alternative of train and packet.

Well as I said, there is a choice of airlines from most airports with Aer Lingus & Aer Lingus Regional offering flights too.

No one is forced to use Ryanair from the UK to Ireland.

 

[berneyarms]

Just a couple of points in response to recent postings.

1. People refer to being "realistic" - I think that being desperately keen for there to still be a habitable ecosystem in a few decades' time is a kind of realism.

2. So many of the arguments for not stopping most plane travel are fatalistic. It's perfectly possible to imagine a future where most people accept that fast travel over long distances just isn't feasible, and so life has to be organised to take that into account. Claiming that something is impossible is often just a way of saying that you don't want it to happen and of encouraging it not to happen.

All of my posts relate to travel into and out of Ireland specifically.

There are plenty of other short haul flights across Europe that would be far easier to replace with rail alternatives.

But Ireland is different given its geographic location on the periphery and the serious lack of acceptable alternatives to air travel. People aren’t going to go back to ferries and trains again no matter what you think.

 

[AlbertBeale]

All of my posts relate to travel into and out of Ireland specifically.

There are plenty of other short haul flights across Europe that would be far easier to replace with rail alternatives.

But Ireland is different given its geographic location on the periphery and the serious lack of acceptable alternatives to air travel. People aren’t going to go back to ferries and trains again no matter what you think.

Sorry - I accept that you're talking about Ireland specifically, and that journeys in other places would be easier to change without so much resistance. However, whilst it might be true that people aren’t going to go back to ferries and trains again no matter what I think, the idea is to get them to think differently - do they want their descendants to have a habitable planet or not? Their choices are relevant to that. And of course their ecologically better choices can be encouraged by a massive increase in air fares (and perhaps a bit of a decrease in train/ferry fares, though the former is more important).

 

[mmh]

Ryanair are a good straw man for those of us against air travel: they represent a 1970s-esque caricature of indifferent, take-it-or leave-it 'customer service', petty charges for stuff that people rightly expect to be included and a militant workforce against which to pitch the pleasant and relaxing alternative of train and packet.

Pleasant and relaxing alternative? I'm going to guess you've never been on a standing room only train from Holyhead.

But I don't understand why people are fixated over Ryanair. The thread started asking if SailRail could be expanded and if Fishguard to Rosslare could better serve the south of Ireland from London.

The answer to that is no. I've flown from London to Cork, would I consider it by train? Of course I wouldn't. These are remote places on a remote island. Why people are suggesting Ireland should be isolated because of its location is beyond me.

 

[Chester1]

So the widespread Irish public support for the construction of the new runway at Dublin Airport is a figment of my imagination? That tells me otherwise.

I’m sorry but some of you need to start thinking in terms of what is involved in living on the periphery of Europe.

There is also the increasing use of Dublin as an interchange for transatlantic flights. US immigration and customs pre clearance at Dublin Airport is a competitive advantage that will help improve the viability of short haul flights, including from UK. Manchester has been in talks on pre clearance for about 3 years but the have stalled because the Airport does not think it is currently worth the cost (yet).