Should there be a Solent tunnel?

[PTR 444]

Any Tunnel, could be similar to how the channel tunnel works, with freight wagons that carry cars, and lorries, on a shuttle operation, plus passenger trains, that would have their own terminal, depending on where the tunnel came out, if near Ryde , a short spur could link into a new station on Island line so there is an interchange,

If the tunnel was over on the west wight, then then one option might be to use the old track bed from Yarmouth to Newport and Cowes with new stations, at Newport and Cowes? That's assuming there was the money and will do it. to bring the islands capital, and at least one entry point, onto a fixed connection with the mainland.

West Wight, despite being the shortest distance between the island and mainland, is the worst place to put a fixed link. As well as being the least populated areas of both landmasses within close proximity of each other, you’d also need serious infrastructure upgrades on both sides. This will be particularly difficult on the mainland side with it being slap bang in the middle of the New Forest National Park.

 

[MartinC]

Just a few facts:
The first proposal of a rail tunnel involved trial borings near Eaglehurst House at Stone Point in 1874 Fairman J R (2002) The Fawley Branch Oakwood Press)
The Fawley power station is long gone and the site otherwise occupied. It is doubtful if the description as "an outfall" in to the Solent would extend to the island itself as it would defeat the purpose.

The late Mr Fairman details several attempts to link to the island including various proposals for a pier at Stone Point to take advantage of the short sea crossing to Cowes.
Even if the existing Fawley Branch was extended to Stone Point (which is now a Country Park) it would need to divert around the refinery (although Network Rail still own the rail link and the station in the middle of the refinery!) A road link would have to involve the upgrading of the A326 to dual carriageway but would then provide a direct link to the M27

 

[Russel]

Total no starter for all the reasons highlighted in this thread.

IMO, The best option for the IOW is a campaign for a subsidised,, frequent ferry service as the current options are all eye wateringly expensive.

 

[Bletchleyite]

IMO, The best option for the IOW is a campaign for a subsidised,, frequent ferry service as the current options are all eye wateringly expensive.

The foot passenger ferry isn't too expensive really. Taking a car costs a fortune but to be honest you don't want the island full of cars - the high cost of doing so keeps congestion down and the tourists help make the excellent bus service viable.

Maybe it could be subsidised for locals only though.

A fixed link would mean it making Betws y Coed or Ambleside in August look quiet.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Maybe it could be subsidised for locals only though.

Island residents do already get discounted fares - and they get heavier discounts if they need to attend medical appointments on the mainland.

 

[Russel]

The foot passenger ferry isn't too expensive really. Taking a car costs a fortune but to be honest you don't want the island full of cars - the high cost of doing so keeps congestion down.

Maybe it could be subsidised for locals only though.

£20ish Foot passenger return may not be too bad occasionally, but it would certainly put people off commuting across the Solent on a daily basis. Even if you're doing an occasional trip as a family on foot, you're talking an easy £50 which would be enough to make people reconsider, especially when you add in public transport costs at either end.

For comparison, subsidised Calmac charge about £10 return to get to Arran on foot.

 

[HSTEd]

Total no starter for all the reasons highlighted in this thread.

IMO, The best option for the IOW is a campaign for a subsidised,, frequent ferry service as the current options are all eye wateringly expensive.

Subsidising the ferry crossings to a meaningful extent will get very expensive very quickly.

A single road crossing would likely drive the vehicle ferries out of business, whatever route it was built on. It would not take long for a bridge to be cheaper to subsidies.

However personally I would suggest a ropeway solution on the Ryde-Gosport-Portsmouth route.

 

[Russel]

Subsidising the ferry crossings to a meaningful extent will get very expensive very quickly.

A single road crossing would likely drive the vehicle ferries out of business, whatever route it was built on. It would not take long for a bridge to be cheaper to subsidies.

However personally I would suggest a ropeway solution on the Ryde-Gosport-Portsmouth route.

The Scottish Government have subsidised a large ferry network for about 10 years now and the UK Government subsidise a rail network that leaks money like a sieve, so I'm not convinced a subsidy for the IOW ferry would push anything over the edge...

 

[HSTEd]

The Scottish Govenment have subsidised a large ferry network for about 10 years now.

Yes, and the ferry subsidy programme is a substantial expenditure.

 

[35B]

The Scottish Government have subsidised a large ferry network for about 10 years now and the UK Government subsidise a rail network that leaks money like a sieve, so I'm not convinced a subsidy for the IOW ferry would push anything over the edge...

And that’s working how for CalMac?

 

[Russel]

Yes, and the ferry subsidy programme is a substantial expenditure.

For a whole network, yes, but we're talking a shuttle across the Solent.

And that’s working how for CalMac?

Not really sure what you're suggesting here?

Calmacs network is a bit of a mess, but that's what you get when your order large vessels from shipyards that aren't in a position to build them and then deliver them years late, simply to support Scottish jobs...

 

[HSTEd]

For a whole network, yes, but we're talking a shuttle across the Solent.

Well several shuttles operate to the island and they carry substantial numbers of people at substantial cost.

If you want to meaningfully reduce the fares you will end up pumping in an awful lot of money. Ferries are very expensive to operate.

And once you are pumping in lots of money it will rapidly approach the cost of a bridge.

 

[The Ham]

Interesting observations, but I still don’t think rail is a viable option. Retail deliveries work on a ‘just in time’ basis which relies on the retail companies logistics companies having complete end-to-end control of the process. The typical mixed loads carried are destined in many cases for one particular large store at a time and carry a complete mixture of dry (ambient), fresh, refrigerated and frozen goods together with ancillaries such as home wear products all in one pre-sorted and counted consignment. Rail can’t do this, and the various individual retailers (Tesco, Sainsbury’s, Asda, Lidl etc could not possibly afford to deliver to a rail point to ship to the IOW and then consolidate the load for the island and then regroup the loads for individual store deliveries.

Many, many islanders take their cars off the island for journeys to all manner of destinations, the vast majority of these are simply not easily accessible by rail. I personally know people who travel with their cars to Stoke-sub-Hamden in Somerset, Brill in Bucks and Haltwhistle in Cumbria all journeys which would be nigh on impossible by public transport. Also, many of these journeys mean being away for several days involving heavy luggage which nobody would want to have to deal with on a journey involving multiple changes. The only sensible option is to pop it into the car at the start of the journey and take it out at the end.

I think that a fixed link is unlikely in the short term, but if it happens, it will have to be a road link.

Quick question, where did I say that there would be no ferries (in the same way that the Channel Tunnel hasn't removed all the ferries from Dover)?

I even said that an hourly car moving service would only cover 1/3rd the car capacity of the ferries.

Likewise, I was very specific about the rail line reduce the need to take cars on and off the island and by extension not totally replace the need to do so.

As such, it would likely be a combination of the existing (but probably fewer) ferries and the rail link.

 

[lachlan]

Any road link will flood the island with cars and as others have said undermine the existing bus services.

A rail link, either to a new underground station somewhere on the island or connecting to the existing line, would be great for commuters and encouraging foot visitors. However I just can't see the money being spent to build it. It would admittedly benefit fewer people than a road connection.

From personal experience I found the Portsmouth-Ryde ferry and connecting trains fairly speedy and convenient. In my view the money (that doesn't exist anyway) would be better spent improving the island railways and buses.

 

[35B]

For a whole network, yes, but we're talking a shuttle across the Solent.



Not really sure what you're suggesting here?

Calmacs network is a bit of a mess, but that's what you get when your order large vessels from shipyards that aren't in a position to build them and then deliver them years late, simply to support Scottish jobs...

Because the subsidy’s used for political goals

 

[Russel]

Because the subsidy’s used for political goals

Doesn't have to be the case though.

Though as with most things, any Solent subsidy would probably become a political point scoring excersize.

 

[SargeNpton]

However personally I would suggest a ropeway solution on the Ryde-Gosport-Portsmouth route.

By ropeway, do you mean what is commonly referred to as a cable car? As in the Emirates Thameslink crossing at Greenwich.

If so, it would be even more susceptable to weather conditions than the ferries are. Also, so many people would refuse to use it as they have a fear of heights.

 

[HSTEd]

By ropeway, do you mean what is commonly referred to as a cable car? As in the Emirates Thameslink crossing at Greenwich.

It would probably be a 3S ropeway, speed of up to 8.5m/s and several cabins per minute with a capacity of potentially 30 people each

If so, it would be even more susceptable to weather conditions than the ferries are. Also, so many people would refuse to use it as they have a fear of heights.

3S ropeways are rated to operate at up to ~100-110km/h wind speed, which means they would be operational in almost everything less than a Force 10 Storm.
These systems are designed to operate in highly exposed mountain environments in winter after all.

As to fear of heights, I think many would overcome it with a travel time from Ryde St John's Road to Portsmouth harbour of ~16-18 minutes (depending on if you go via Gosport) with wait times much less than one minute.

 

[PTR 444]

It would probably be a 3S ropeway, speed of up to 8.5m/s and several cabins per minute with a capacity of potentially 30 people each

3S ropeways are rated to operate at up to ~100-110km/h wind speed, which means they would be operational in almost everything less than a Force 10 Storm.
These systems are designed to operate in highly exposed mountain environments in winter after all.

As to fear of heights, I think many would overcome it with a travel time from Ryde St John's Road to Portsmouth harbour of ~16-18 minutes (depending on if you go via Gosport) with wait times much less than one minute.

That is still slower than the hovercraft.

My concern with a ropeway across the Solent is that it would need to have a high enough clearance for ships passing below, and would be a blot on the seascape. You’d certainly need supporting towers in the middle of the Solent for a 3 mile long cable car, assuming you make landfall at Fort Gilkicker, the closest point on the mainland from Ryde.

 

[The Ham]

That is still slower than the hovercraft.

My concern with a ropeway across the Solent is that it would need to have a high enough clearance for ships passing below, and would be a blot on the seascape. You’d certainly need supporting towers in the middle of the Solent for a 3 mile long cable car, assuming you make landfall at Fort Gilkicker, the closest point on the mainland from Ryde.

However, unlike the hovercraft (which in reality has little within a 5 minute walk) you're connecting at a significant railway station with a lot of development nearby.

 

[Moritzplatz]

£20ish Foot passenger return may not be too bad occasionally, but it would certainly put people off commuting across the Solent on a daily basis.

Some employers on the mainland have agreed a discount deal with individual ferry and hovercraft companies to facilitate work travel for colleagues who live on the Isle of Wight. Such discounts often only apply to standard adult single, day and period return fares, however, and not season tickets. Reliability issues, often caused by bad weather or technical problems, are another factor that affects regular commuters.

 

[MartinC]

Concerning foot passengers nobody seems to have mentioned the alternative ferry from Lymington where the singe ticket price is half of Wightlink
ink

 

[Gloster]

Concerning foot passengers nobody seems to have mentioned the alternative ferry from Lymington where the singe ticket price is half of Wightlink
ink

If you mean the Quay2quay, there are a number of off-putting points, although they might be sorted out as things develop. There are only six sailings on a weekday, with the early ferry not running at weekends, when the first ferry operates at 09.30. The ferry goes from the town in Lymington, so you have a walk round from the Town station to the pontoon. It sounds as though boarding for those with mobility problems may be a bit of a problem. Only fifty of the one-hundred and ten places are in the cabin: the rest are in the open, which will be lovely on a wet and windy day.

It does look to me as being a tourist and tripper orientated set-up, with any other traffic just having to fit in. It really doesn’t look like contributing much to the transport network, although it may be of some use to those travelling to and from Lymington itself.

 

[Mike Machin]

Any Tunnel, could be similar to how the channel tunnel works, with freight wagons that carry cars, and lorries, on a shuttle operation, plus passenger trains, that would have their own terminal, depending on where the tunnel came out, if near Ryde , a short spur could link into a new station on Island line so there is an interchange,

If the tunnel was over on the west wight, then then one option might be to use the old track bed from Yarmouth to Newport and Cowes with new stations, at Newport and Cowes? That's assuming there was the money and will do it. to bring the islands capital, and at least one entry point, onto a fixed connection with the mainland.

It’s such a short crossing that a road vehicle could complete the crossing in a matter of minutes. Having to book a crossing, check-in, queue to board a shuttle train, travel across and disembark would be such a complete waste of time. In addition, the cost of taking a car on a train would likely be considerably more expensive than a toll.

The Severn Crossing is 5km in length whereas the shortest distance between the Isle of Wight and the mainland is a mere 1.3km. A bridge constructed to make landfall within the west of the island with some serious road upgrades would probably be the easiest solution. However, the most realistic solution would be to leave matters as they are.