Should Thameslink give up on First Class?

[gazthomas]

I apologise in advance if this has already been well trodden...

I regularly use Thameslink services from St Albans to central London and return. As my work expense policy allows it I buy a first class ticket which gives me a good chance of a seat at peak times, while allowing me to work with my laptop.

I am quite aware of the declassification of the rear first class section of non Sutton loop services and the declassification of all first class on Sutton loop services, along with the reasons for this.

Given the generous policy for standard class ticket holders I get annoyed when people use the front first class section without holding a valid ticket. This seems a very common occurrence and when I've seen revenue protection inspectors (or equivalent) check tickets the majority of people are either fined or asked to move into standard class.

So back to my question, should Thameslink give up on First Class altogether, or do they need to find a better solution to ensure passengers are eligible to sit there?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I suppose the question is how much extra revenue does GTR make from first class and is it worth it?

 

[Hadders]

Personally I think they should keep first class.

Journeys such as Cambridge to London, Peterborough to London and Brighton to London should have the option of 1st class. Also anyone travelling 1st class and using Thameslink as a connection into a long distance train should have 1st class available on what are reasonably long services (after all we're not talking inner-suburban!)

Arguably there is over provision of 1st class on the 700s (hence the declassification of the rear compartment) but we have the DfT to thank as they specified the interior layout of the trains.

 

[gazthomas]

I suppose the question is how much extra revenue does GTR make from first class and is it worth it?

That is an interesting question and anecdotaly I can't imagine that much, especially off peak

 

[gazthomas]

Personally I think they should keep first class.

Journeys such as Cambridge to London, Peterborough to London and Brighton to London should have the option of 1st class. Also anyone travelling 1st class and using Thameslink as a connection into a long distance train should have 1st class available on what are reasonably long services (after all we're not talking inner-suburban!)

Arguably there is over provision of 1st class on the 700s (hence the declassification of the rear compartment) but we have the DfT to thank as they specified the interior layout of the trains.

So how do they solve this? Convert the first class areas to standard and have a first class portion in the middle?

 

[bramling]

So how do they solve this? Convert the first class areas to standard and have a first class portion in the middle?

The answer is probably to reduce the size of the first on the 700/0s, and leave it as it is on the 700/1s.

Personally a better solution would be to ditch the concept of first, and simply make up the whole train to first class standard of comfort (i.e. more comfortable seats plus tables, and some partitioning so noise doesn't carry through the whole train).

 

[Hadders]

So how do they solve this? Convert the first class areas to standard and have a first class portion in the middle?

Ideally you'd put it in the middle but that's where the wheelchair area and level access boarding is in the core stations so you can't really put it there.

Personally I'd keep 1st class where it is at either end of the train but reduce it in size by around 50%

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I think Thameslink indeed should give up on first class, since alongside taking up a lot of space and being used by standard class ticket holders anyway, the routes on which first class is available are pretty much already taken care of in that respect

London to Brighton/Horsham
London to Cambridge
London to Peterborough

so if customers want a comfortable journey they could buy a first class ticket with Southern, Great Northern and LNER respectively. Or, if that’s too expensive, then a 2nd class ticket with them, as first class on Thameslink is not much different to 2nd class on LNER/Great Northern 387s/etc

 

[jopsuk]

Supposedly when ordering the 700s Govia wanted to have them all-standard, but the DfT said no? Now Greater Anglia is going (almost) all-Standard, I can see it being a possibility when the Thameslink Southern Great Northern franchise (or the various bits of it) are put out to tender.

 

[hwl]

Supposedly when ordering the 700s Govia wanted to have them all-standard, but the DfT said no? Now Greater Anglia is going (almost) all-Standard, I can see it being a possibility when the Thameslink Southern Great Northern franchise (or the various bits of it) are put out to tender.

DfT ordered the 700s but thing have moved on since. The main requirements for the 700s go back to 2007-08 and DfT thinking has changed since but at least first class removal was a specified requirement.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I suppose the question is how much extra revenue does GTR make from first class and is it worth it?

Zero. The revenue goes to the DfT. The reason first class is there is because the Brighton Line commuters kicked off when they tried to remove it when Thameslink first appeared. DfT/GTR would prefer not to have it

 

[AM9]

Zero. The revenue goes to the DfT. The reason first class is there is because the Brighton Line commuters kicked off when they tried to remove it when Thameslink first appeared. DfT/GTR would prefer not to have it

Well, it's probably there until a major refit, (probably mid-life) by which time the trains' massive capacity will likely be needed as demand increases. Until then, enjoy the free upgrade if you can.

 

[gazthomas]

On a London bound service now with a revenue inspector, over half of the passengers are having a nice chat

 

[AM9]

On a London bound service now with a revenue inspector, over half of the passengers are having a nice chat

Good. It's quite simple to understand, first at the rear and if the pis doesn't have the right message shown every minute or so then just don't sit there.

 

[Kite159]

On a London bound service now with a revenue inspector, over half of the passengers are having a nice chat

Although how many of those would be for holding standard class tickets sitting in the front first class area, or having a nice chat about a season ticket for St Albans to Radlett isn't valid to London?

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Having first class on commuter routes is a double edged sword, the main reason is a better chance of a seat during the peaks as on some routes you don't get any 'perks' [although on the 700s you get perks such as a power socket & a table]. The current system is about right, maybe reduce the size of the first class area and have it enforced both ends.

 

[Bald Rick]

Although how many of those would be for holding standard class tickets sitting in the front first class area, or having a nice chat about a season ticket for St Albans to Radlett isn't valid to London?

I’ve never seen the latter, but don’t doubt it does happen.

As has been said, first class is a big earner on the Brighton line, and particularly for commuters to the City, ie London Bridge.

North of the river it is also a big earner, although not necessarily because lots of people travel first class on the trains. The Thameslink service group gets a share of LNER and EMT first class revenue for first class travel south of Peterborough/ Bedford respectively.

My view is that 700/0 should have all FC replaced with standard class seats, and the 700/1 have the north end FC replaced with standard seats (as the 12s are rarely turned). Then first class means first class, and there can be no mistakes about declassification.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I’ve never seen the latter, but don’t doubt it does happen.

As has been said, first class is a big earner on the Brighton line, and particularly for commuters to the City, ie London Bridge.

North of the river it is also a big earner, although not necessarily because lots of people travel first class on the trains. The Thameslink service group gets a share of LNER and EMT first class revenue for first class travel south of Peterborough/ Bedford respectively.

My view is that 700/0 should have all FC replaced with standard class seats, and the 700/1 have the north end FC replaced with standard seats (as the 12s are rarely turned). Then first class means first class, and there can be no mistakes about declassification.

Good plan - but you might need a few extra 12 cars to cover the handful of Bedford to GTW which are 8 cars. You can spot these all right , as they are the ones with fearsome crowding in the peaks.

On reflection , madness to allow the joys of 1st class on the Loop , to Rainham via North Kent and Orpington etc , lines which lost their planned 1st class accommodation in 1941. Nice treat though for the present users.