Should Semaphore signals become listed structures?

[Matt P]

But my point is, why shouldn’t some parts of it be a glorified museum? Providing it isn’t imposing constraints on what can run, what’s the problem? As regards cost, it’s no different to listed buildings costing more to manage and maintain - the extra cost in considered worthwhile.





It isn’t so much the semaphores themselves, but the whole way of working. In the case of Shrewsbury in particular there seems to be little appetite to try and design a modern scheme.

I wouldn’t advocate keeping old methods of working on large amounts of the network, but in a few particular locations it’s hardly a major hindrance. Cornwall would have been my first choice, perhaps the S&C another. Grantham to Skegness perhaps.

In terms of cost, given that the cost of running the railways is underwritten quite substantially by the tax payer, I am reasonably most tax payers would wish their money spent wisely on the most effective way to move traffic by rail. If the railways don't continually modernise they become (or remain) vulnerable when governments tighten the purse strings.

If it isn't the semaphores themselves but the way of working, this goes way beyond the scope of Listing. Buildings are listed because of their historical and/or architectural significance. Listing also comes with quite significant restrictions on alterations to those buildings in order to protect their fabric and character. As an aside, I am a Local Authority Planner and have been for over 20 years. What you are seeking to do is protect things that are not immovable objects but more an atmosphere. Even Shrewsbury doesn't have this any more. The gantry at the northern end of the station has a mix of semaphore and colour lights, for example. Even historic station buildings have moved with the times and been refurbished to meet the needs of a 21st century passenger rather than a pre-WW2 one.

 

[MarkyT]

In terms of cost, given that the cost of running the railways is underwritten quite substantially by the tax payer, I am reasonably most tax payers would wish their money spent wisely on the most effective way to move traffic by rail. If the railways don't continually modernise they become (or remain) vulnerable when governments tighten the purse strings.

The problem with mechanical signalling is not safety or reliability which can be excellent with good maintenance. The operational cost of manning multiple small boxes is one major issue and it's often the most marginal social railways in rural areas that retain this costly form of operations. Obsolescence can also become a problem especially when certain important components become unavailable. Those who look after this kit are very innovative however and new suppliers are often found, even by obtaining parts from heritage railways in some cases. The wide variety of different designs and manufacturers of this generation of equipment is also a concern for both spares and skills. BR regions often attempted to standardise to a degree by having a policy to retain only certain favoured frame types that can be supported. Workforce skills are also an issue especially suitably sizing a team when the number of installations are dwindling quickly. The high capital costs of resignalling can be difficult to justify on rural lines which tends to lock these high OPEX costs in.

If it isn't the semaphores themselves but the way of working, this goes way beyond the scope of Listing. Buildings are listed because of their historical and/or architectural significance. Listing also comes with quite significant restrictions on alterations to those buildings in order to protect their fabric and character. As an aside, I am a Local Authority Planner and have been for over 20 years. What you are seeking to do is protect things that are not immovable objects but more an atmosphere. Even Shrewsbury doesn't have this any more. The gantry at the northern end of the station has a mix of semaphore and colour lights, for example.

The signalling system evolves constantly. Over the years, an individual mechanical box may have had modernised block controls, electric machine-operated semaphore distant, then colour light distants. Some long pull points converted to electric point machine. Maybe an IBS section added when a neighbouring box was abolished, swinging level crossing gates replaced by lifting barriers. AWS then TPWS added. More colour lights added in place of semaphores, still controlled by the levers, or the mechanical frame may have been replaced by a small panel with a new relay interlocking. I doubt any older installation on the network is exactly as originally built.

Even historic station buildings have moved with the times and been refurbished to meet the needs of a 21st century passenger rather than a pre-WW2 one.

Which can be done sensitively with care of course.

 

[High Dyke]

I'm all for saving an operational item, be it semaphore signals or a signal box. Where it could be reusable then that is beneficial. Actually listing items is not helpful. Network Rail already has assets like gate wheels, since replaced by barriers, that remain within the structure of a listed building.

Equally, like for like replacement has happened all across the national rail network. Sometimes it is deemed more cost effective to fit a replacement semaphore rather than a colour light.

 

[Krokodil]

I wonder if some could see a second use as gate guardians for station car parks. There used to be one near Newton Abbot - the entrance to a publisher or something?

I doubt that any semaphore signals go for scrap these days, Network Rail have relationships with preserved railways for redundant assets. It would be quite nice if a public platform for disposals were available

 

[John Webb]

I wonder if some could see a second use as gate guardians for station car parks. There used to be one near Newton Abbot - the entrance to a publisher or something?....

It was for the publishers David and Charles. I think this is it:
Newton Abbot - preserved signal gantry

© Copyright Chris Allen and licensed for reuse under this Creative Commons Licence.

An Aldi now stands where David and Charles used to be, but Streetview shows the gantry was still there in April this year.

 

[MarkyT]

I wonder if some could see a second use as gate guardians for station car parks. There used to be one near Newton Abbot - the entrance to a publisher or something?

The gantry was rescued from the station nearby and erected by railway publisher David and Charles at the boundary of their premises in a former carriage workshop at Newton Abbot, part of the old works and depot complex and since demolished for a new Aldi. In a prominent position on a main road into the town, Aldi committed in their planning application to retain the gantry at their site boundary, and a few years ago, formal ownership was passed to Teignbridge council in the care of the museum department. Volunteers from the South Devon Railway are currently renovating the gantry for the museum, who also have a signalling installation in the railway collection at their main premises in town.

Restoration work gets under way on iconic Newton Abbot railway gantry

The British Rail Western Region signal gantry on busy Torquay Road is being given an overhaul courtesy of the rail buffs and Newton Abbot Town and GWR Museum.

www.devonairradio.com

I doubt that any semaphore signals go for scrap these days, Network Rail have relationships with preserved railways for redundant assets. It would be quite nice if a public platform for disposals were available

Arms and fittings of popular post-war signal styles are fairly readily available new today and old structures can be worn out, so in most cases NR won't need or want to harvest much themselves from semaphore signals being demolished. As you say there is a healthy relationship with the heritage sector and items are offered regularly but it can't be done everywhere because of the realities of site activity and the limited time to clear things up in possessions, particularly in buildings that have to come down because they're in the way of a new track layout, at Banbury South for example. Stripping things out in a signalbox that doesn't need to be demolished immediately is much easier than trackside recoveries. NR often want to keep at least some of the electrical equipment from a box, maybe also some mechanical frame parts, for their own spares.

 

[Halifaxlad]

The railway already has lots of listed structures that it has to work with, or retain as operationally redundant assets. These include stations, bridges, viaducts and tunnels. In particular it includes signal boxes, such as Birmingham New Street.

and a lot of listed footbridges are North Eastern and of the same design which can also be found on many preseved railways and inside the NRM.