Should Scotrail have gone for 68s rather than HSTs?

[Clansman]

68s wouldn't be able to match the HST timings IIRC. There was a discussion a while back on a similar idea but with Mk4s instead, and timings was the general consensus of the barriers which prevented its viability. Also the state of the Mk4s is an understatement on this forum - from what those who work them have indicated, they are just as tatty as the Mk3s.

 

[train_lover]

They are as incompatible with ScotRail demands as what they are with XC. The franchise invitation to tender pretty much outlines why this is.

How people keep thinking the Voyagers are any more suitable for ScotRail intercity routes as is the norm on the forum across the years, I've no idea.

The voyages are spread too thinly over the XC network. Using them in Scotland would most certainly enable them to double up the sets where the infrastructure permits.

For the voyagers sins they are extremely reliable and have superb acceleration and braking capabilities. Ideal for what Scotland needs. Alternatively maybe Scotland should of had all the XC 170s and the voyagers should of replaced the current XC 170 work with the HSTs replacing voyagers.

 

[haggishunter]

ScotRail at least have refurbished HSTs in service, unlike the class 68 + Mk5s for TPE.

A return of some sort of loco hauled service to non inter7city routes similar to the concept of Young Explorer trains that run for several years in the 90s to free up units for strengthening services and providing specific trains with much greater capacity for large luggage, bikes and sports gear is required.

The situation on the HML is getting worse not better, but the HML has nothing on some recent journeys I’ve made on the WHL.

There is a risk we are reaching breakpoint where the arse could simply fall out of Highland Tourism because we simply lack the necessary infrastructure.

I’ve had to literally shove people to board a rammed 156 at Tyndrum Lower, that was after not even trying to get on through the first 2 doors I tried! There were push chairs perched on top of stacks of luggage, luggage on tables, passengers on tables, there were people standing in the toilet - in the end a group of four backpackers who were waiting with me never boarded and went off to hitch hike.

I’ve made 4 trips on the WHL and if not throughout then for at least a substantial part it’s been full and standing. Coming North on Friday, the train was frankly beyond full and standing leaving Queen St. I was amongst the first on so got a seat, but the guy I was sitting to had friends getting on at Dalmuir - they were going to Mallaig for an evening ferry and they didn’t manage to board the train at Dalmuir.

I queued for 26 minutes to use the toilet - shortly after Corrour there was a PA announcement that the toilets were out of use. The PIS didn’t work most of the trip, when it came to life it was wrong. The guard and trolley person were shoving their way through trying to shout destinations! Manual PA announcements mostly couldn’t be heard, simply nowhere near loud enough for the numbers crammed in. Numerous incidents of 2 or 3 people with reservations for the same seat leading to heated arguments.

While in many ways the inadequacy of the service in terms of capacity and frequency comes from the accumulated decades of vastly insufficient infrastructure investment in Scotland, there are things here and now that are/were in ScotRail’s power and they continue to shoot themselves in the foot. Seat reservations should just stop until all new and refurbed stock are in use, the PA and PIS not being fit for purpose on the refurb 156s is inexcusable.

While it’s an improving picture post devolution, the scale of transport and infrastructure investment needed here is overwhelming. But something urgently needs to be done because the WHL and HML experience at the moment is a disgrace, a national embarrassment that if not rectified risks lasting damage to Scotland’s tourism and outdoor leisure industries.

 

[Indigo Soup]

There's 56 seats in a class 80x driving car: That's more than a class 397 (44, plus 8 tip-up), and only slightly less than a mark 5 driving trailer (64).

Class 80x vehicles are several metres longer, though, so you'd epxect them to have another 12-16 seats more than a 22/23 metre vehicle.

 

[Journeyman]

Is there any reason why CAF could not cheaply redesign 195s/196s to have end doors?

An end-door version of the Civity is already available. TPE are buying the electric version for Anglo-Scottish services, and at least one franchise bidder (I could tell you but I'd have to kill you) was interested in the diesel version.

 

[richa2002]

30 years between the two and we're still running shorter trains. Makes no sense.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/markjobling/14526212798/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mark-walker/34343518951/

 

[Struner]

I like the older photo better myself, yes.
The seating capacity will be more or less the same though?
Mk1s are shorter than 156s & the Class 37 pulls a brake van (1/2?), most probably some buffet (again 1/2?) & a first class carriage.
But the level of comfort was higher I suppose.

 

[Indigo Soup]

Mk1s are shorter than 156s & the Class 37 pulls a brake van (1/2?), most probably some buffet (again 1/2?) & a first class carriage.

A typical WHL formation from the 1980s would be a Brake First, 3 Standard Opens, and a Standard Open with Micro-Buffet. A Micro-Buffet wasn't much different to a stationary catering trolley, except that it carried a bit more stock and had a counter. 7-carriage trains did run (the sleeper normally had a 3-car Mallaig-Glasgow portion and a 4-car Fort William-London portion) but as you say, the carriages were shorter and the locomotive was allowed to sit off the platform.

 

[Highland37]

ScotRail at least have refurbished HSTs in service, unlike the class 68 + Mk5s for TPE.

A return of some sort of loco hauled service to non inter7city routes similar to the concept of Young Explorer trains that run for several years in the 90s to free up units for strengthening services and providing specific trains with much greater capacity for large luggage, bikes and sports gear is required.

The situation on the HML is getting worse not better, but the HML has nothing on some recent journeys I’ve made on the WHL.

There is a risk we are reaching breakpoint where the arse could simply fall out of Highland Tourism because we simply lack the necessary infrastructure.

I’ve had to literally shove people to board a rammed 156 at Tyndrum Lower, that was after not even trying to get on through the first 2 doors I tried! There were push chairs perched on top of stacks of luggage, luggage on tables, passengers on tables, there were people standing in the toilet - in the end a group of four backpackers who were waiting with me never boarded and went off to hitch hike.

I’ve made 4 trips on the WHL and if not throughout then for at least a substantial part it’s been full and standing. Coming North on Friday, the train was frankly beyond full and standing leaving Queen St. I was amongst the first on so got a seat, but the guy I was sitting to had friends getting on at Dalmuir - they were going to Mallaig for an evening ferry and they didn’t manage to board the train at Dalmuir.

I queued for 26 minutes to use the toilet - shortly after Corrour there was a PA announcement that the toilets were out of use. The PIS didn’t work most of the trip, when it came to life it was wrong. The guard and trolley person were shoving their way through trying to shout destinations! Manual PA announcements mostly couldn’t be heard, simply nowhere near loud enough for the numbers crammed in. Numerous incidents of 2 or 3 people with reservations for the same seat leading to heated arguments.

While in many ways the inadequacy of the service in terms of capacity and frequency comes from the accumulated decades of vastly insufficient infrastructure investment in Scotland, there are things here and now that are/were in ScotRail’s power and they continue to shoot themselves in the foot. Seat reservations should just stop until all new and refurbed stock are in use, the PA and PIS not being fit for purpose on the refurb 156s is inexcusable.

While it’s an improving picture post devolution, the scale of transport and infrastructure investment needed here is overwhelming. But something urgently needs to be done because the WHL and HML experience at the moment is a disgrace, a national embarrassment that if not rectified risks lasting damage to Scotland’s tourism and outdoor leisure industries.

Yes. I agree wit you. Unfortunately there is no money, as usual, so onward we forge with ancient and clapped out 156s, 158s and even more ancient HSTs (which are barely in service). Meanwhile, travel on many similar railways in other countries and there has been progressive upgrading on a continual basis. Our culture doesn't really allow for that though. Vive la 158!

 

[randyrippley]

With all the installed power, I'd have thought the 185 fleet would have been ideal for Scotland
Why are they never considered?

 

[hexagon789]

With all the installed power, I'd have thought the 185 fleet would have been ideal for Scotland
Why are they never considered?

Too small - less capacity than a 170; can't use HST or SP speeds.