Should "new Northern" scrap 15x as a sweetener?

[Meerkat]

There's only so many places which will need to use bimodal trains

There are loads of lines where you can use bi-modes, and as they get electrified you just drop the engines off them!

It should also be noted that longer term bimodal trains from elsewhere (GWML or MML) could be used (and be a good fit) the WofE line

80x trains are not suitable for the WoE line - for a start they are the wrong type of electric!

 

[The Ham]

There are loads of lines where you can use bi-modes, and as they get electrified you just drop the engines off them!

There's currently loads of lines, however with the potential desire to make rail greener the number of lines is likely to fall over the next 15 years, even then chances are most of those which are left probably wouldn't justify the use of 4 or 5 coach trains which is probably most suited for the WofE line.

80x trains are not suitable for the WoE line - for a start they are the wrong type of electric!

The WofE line is CURRENTLY not suited for 80x trains, that's sure. However long term could be in 20 years time and things could be very different then.

For instance if you are wiring up Reading/Basingstoke and Salisbury/Southampton via Salisbury the Basingstoke isn't the best location to switch electricity sources as it's quite a complex junction.

Likewise any electrification of the North Downs line is likely to cause problems with the interaction between the power sources.

Add in the Southern Approach to Heathrow which may well benefit from running trains which use a single source of electricity, pushing us even further away from the renewal of third rail.

Finally Crossrail 2 is likely to simplify the ability to change from 3rd rail to OHLE further in.

Therefore long term it might be better to run 2 train every other hour from London to (say) Woking using diesel (or even swapping the diesel packs for batteries) before switching to OHLE to Yeovil (or maybe even further out) and then back to diesel/battery to Exeter with the other services to/from Exeter running Exeter, Yeovil, Westbury, Salisbury.

 

[Meerkat]

You are proposing bi-modes for WoE but using diesel on the currently electrified bits and electric on bits that would then require dieselisation?! Novel....
Why are you doing contortions to contrive 80x usage? The line doesn’t need 140mph capable units and can’t afford to waste all the length it involves - these trains get VERY crowded at the suburban end!
Just buy some DC/diesel bi-mode 444 equivalents, 110mph max, with passive provision for AC.
Do it now, cascade the 159s to worthy northern lines, then wait for GWR electrification to reach Exeter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You are proposing bi-modes for WoE but using diesel on the currently electrified bits and electric on bits that would then require dieselisation?! Novel....
Why are you doing contortions to contrive 80x usage? The line doesn’t need 140mph capable units and can’t afford to waste all the length it involves - these trains get VERY crowded at the suburban end!
Just buy some DC/diesel bi-mode 444 equivalents, 110mph max, with passive provision for AC.
Do it now, cascade the 159s to worthy northern lines, then wait for GWR electrification to reach Exeter.

Do CAF have a bi-mode concept or could they develop one? Class 397s with diesels under them but the shorter gangwayed nose for a 100mph unit would work well.

(The Class 397 is the closest thing to the "Class 344" I've wanted to see for a long time!)

 

[Meerkat]

Which factory is running out of work soonest?

 

[The Ham]

You are proposing bi-modes for WoE but using diesel on the currently electrified bits and electric on bits that would then require dieselisation?! Novel....
Why are you doing contortions to contrive 80x usage? The line doesn’t need 140mph capable units and can’t afford to waste all the length it involves - these trains get VERY crowded at the suburban end!
Just buy some DC/diesel bi-mode 444 equivalents, 110mph max, with passive provision for AC.
Do it now, cascade the 159s to worthy northern lines, then wait for GWR electrification to reach Exeter.

The thing is even if we were to order new units today they would take some time to arrive, quite possibly 4 years.

Conversely battery trains and a few locos could be delivered fairly quickly.

The 80x's would (at 9 coaches) fit within the existing infrastructure, 10 coaches may require carful consideration. However a 9 coach train formed of 3*159's has seating for 588 passengers, this compares with 630 for the 9 coach 80x's.

There could even be scope to improve this further, as indicated by the extra capacity on the TPE units vs GWR (684 seats in a 10 coach TPE train).

That's plenty to be getting on with. However Crossrail 2 is likely to result in extra paths from London and the line with the most spare paths is the WofE line, so it's likely that the loading per train needn't be as good as it is now if there's extra services from the likes of Salisbury taking the strain.

Anyway the main point of my post was that things in 15 years time could well be very different for the WofE line and if we can create a temporary solution to allow new order trains to be delivered to Northern ahead of the WofE line as well as freeing up 159's then perhaps that's something that we should look at.

 

[Meerkat]

Which battery trains will be quick delivery??

 

[randyrippley]

Which battery trains will be quick delivery??

Better question: who has battery technology which would allow a Basingstoke-Exeter return, with charging off the DC Waterloo-Basingstoke?
I suspect no-one

 

[Energy]

Which battery trains will be quick delivery??

Either class 230s (although they aren't really suitable for this) or 350/2s.

 

[AndrewE]

Either class 230s (although they aren't really suitable for this) or 350/2s.

Quite right, I don't think anyone has ever claimed that a 230 would be suitable for Salisbury to Exeter, and I can't see either them or a battery-powered 350 designed, modified and de-bugged working within 5 years either. How long is it since we were told that the 230s would be a quick fix?

 

[YorksLad12]

I'm more thinking that I'd have them all as a standard 3 and use single and double formations as per Merseyrail. But extending to 4 and 5 with no doubling up would be another option.

Longer trains would cause a few problems at Leeds (and elsewhere) I guess...

Back in the day, when I worked in Sheffield and commuted from Leeds with Northern, I had a sequence in my mind for the kind of train I hoped would turn up. Top of the list was a three-carriage class 158. Plenty of space there. Next was the two-carriage class 158. Then a three-car Pacer. Then a two-car Pacer. Then a single-carriage class 155 (we only had one once, it was standing room as we left Leeds, Wakefield, Barnsley and Meadowhall passengers had no chance). Then no train. Then the class 150.

Northern's 150s have been refurbished so that most seats are bays, but with no legroom for the six people they expect to sit there. I'm not keen on the 195s or the 331s either, as they're mostly tables (commuters hate tables) and even the table seats don't match up the windows. Class 158 for me wherever possible!

 

[yorksrob]

Longer trains would cause a few problems at Leeds (and elsewhere) I guess...

Back in the day, when I worked in Sheffield and commuted from Leeds with Northern, I had a sequence in my mind for the kind of train I hoped would turn up. Top of the list was a three-carriage class 158. Plenty of space there. Next was the two-carriage class 158. Then a three-car Pacer. Then a two-car Pacer. Then a single-carriage class 155 (we only had one once, it was standing room as we left Leeds, Wakefield, Barnsley and Meadowhall passengers had no chance). Then no train. Then the class 150.

Northern's 150s have been refurbished so that most seats are bays, but with no legroom for the six people they expect to sit there. I'm not keen on the 195s or the 331s either, as they're mostly tables (commuters hate tables) and even the table seats don't match up the windows. Class 158 for me wherever possible!

As a current commuter on the Hallam line, the sequence of preference outlined by yourself is similar to mine today.

However sadly, most od tthe 150's I see on the route still have hopelessly impractical 3+2 airline seating !

 

[Energy]

I'm more thinking that I'd have them all as a standard 3 and use single and double formations as per Merseyrail. But extending to 4 and 5 with no doubling up would be another option.

I would go for a 3 and 4 car fleet, the 4 car desiro and electrostar fleets seem to work well with the 3 car sets allowing flexibility for 6 car, 9 cars and just 3 cars if the service isn't too busy