Should lines with an irregular frequency be reduced to allow a clockface timetable?

[Bletchleyite]

What's cycling like round there? Could it actually make more sense closed and converted to a cycleway, with buses on the road with some bus lanes and overtakes put in to reduce the impact of congestion?

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm not sure that I believe that, lots and lots of people do travel between St Albans and Watford, I used to be one of them, and a good proportion of the people at my old employer did the same journey. What is undoubtedly true is that not many people want to travel from St Albans Abbey Station, given it's location, and the limited service. Anyone wanting Watford Town centre will be a bit put off too, even though it's not that far. Half hourly sounds a lot more attractive, but it does nothing for the location of the actual station(s)

Sorry, yes, I wasn’t clear. Not many people want to travel from south St Albans to the Watford Junction area. Or vice versa. Whilst there is lots of employment in Watford, much of it is ‘out of town’. And St Albans people tend not to shop or ‘leisure’ in Watford.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

What's cycling like round there? Could it actually make more sense closed and converted to a cycleway, with buses on the road with some bus lanes and overtakes put in to reduce the impact of congestion?

Potentially lethal with the very poor driving skills of many of the locals - whilst the old GN route to Hatfield is an excellent and safe (for cycling) route , the best modal shift move in my opinion would be Dutch style segregated routes to Hemel , Harpenden and certainly to Watford. The first 2 extremely dangerous for cycling.

A hybrid route to Watford with electric /battery buses would be an option.

In terms of rail usage - St Albans tends to go end to end to Watford for onwards rail - and vice versa , with a smidgeon of local flows to the intermediates (usually "no fare paid") - seemed to be very rare for SAC people to shop at Watford (have you been there recently ? - not good) , and little evidence of say Garston to St Albans traffic - they tend to gravitate towards near-by Watford and always have ....

 

[MarkyT]

That is why the light rail idea seems reasonably solid - it could run on-street to more useful places both ends.

Street running can be expensive and disruptive to build, with utilities to move, etc, and if ROW is shared with general traffic, service can be vulnerable to significant journey time variability unless very careful prioritisation measures are employed. Better to have dedicated alignments or lanes as far as possible, maybe in or alongside the public highway where space is available, but using light rail's curve negotiation and hill-climbing abilities, and allowing the crossing of roads at grade without the full segregation required for new heavy rail construction. An example of this approach is the recent Manchester Metrolink Trafford Park extension; very little traditional street running but running alongside and crossing major roads at grade where necessary. Reliable journey times are particularly important where lengthy single-track sections are involved. The above concerns apply equally to busways, BRT etc. In Watford there might be potential to link the St Albans and Croxley branch via a new alignment passing under the WCML to the south of Watford Junction station, via the Stephenson Way viaduct. Thus the dedicated alignment could serve Watford High Street station, which is pretty well sited for the south end of the commercial/retail district.

 

[BrianW]

Street running can be expensive and disruptive to build, with utilities to move, etc, and if ROW is shared with general traffic, service can be vulnerable to significant journey time variability unless very careful prioritisation measures are employed. Better to have dedicated alignments or lanes as far as possible, maybe in or alongside the public highway where space is available, but using light rail's curve negotiation and hill-climbing abilities, and allowing the crossing of roads at grade without the full segregation required for new heavy rail construction. An example of this approach is the recent Manchester Metrolink Trafford Park extension; very little traditional street running but running alongside and crossing major roads at grade where necessary. Reliable journey times are particularly important where lengthy single-track sections are involved. The above concerns apply equally to busways, BRT etc. In Watford there might be potential to link the St Albans and Croxley branch via a new alignment passing under the WCML to the south of Watford Junction station, via the Stephenson Way viaduct. Thus the dedicated alignment could serve Watford High Street station, which is pretty well sited for the south end of the commercial/retail district.

Ah yes- St Albans- Croxley- ... where have I seen that idea before, recently, ...? Worth spending a few millions on a study or several surely of how many if any might use such Maroon crayon?

 

[cle]

If the loop is built, at least it is in place for a more 'useful' Watford Junction in future - higher frequency services north and south, plus an hourly Manchester (in addition to Birmingham). A shame of course about the Met line, and Bakerloo for that matter - although 4tph DC is ok - it could have really become a big hub again with a lot of development encouraged.

 

[yorksrob]

There have been some fantasy (sorry "innovative") ideas in the past as to how a tram could negotiate Holywell Hill (thinking of San Francisco here) , let alone the rest of the city. Getting across Watford equally challenging.

I hate to say it , but the actual costs of a heavy rail line , which even in my day carried at best a 1000 pax a day (much less now I suggest and not much revenue collected) , might need a long hard look and dare I say , a bus way with simple signals and passing loops signalled (I think they call them traffic lights) could produce a more frequent service and at less capital and operating cost. Say Bricket Wood to Watford to avoid the Watford traffic issues.

I realise I am now sounding like Lance Ibbotson here (one time GM of the Southern Region , who , in his retrirement advocated mass rail /road conversions which did not end well)

Will post this and await comments. Going a bit OT here.

Had branch usage reduced substantially prior to covid out of interest ? It must be a bit of an outlier if so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Had branch usage reduced substantially prior to covid out of interest ? It must be a bit of an outlier if so.

Prior to COVID the whole LNR service was falling to bits due to the ill-advised extensions across Brum - had this caused staffing issues on the branch? I forget.

 

[Bald Rick]

Had branch usage reduced substantially prior to covid out of interest ? It must be a bit of an outlier if so.

Not really, it has never been busy. Something like an average of 20 people per train.

 

[yorksrob]

Not really, it has never been busy. Something like an average of 20 people per train.

Not that I'd advocate changing it into anything. Highway based conversions are better suited to Damascus IMO.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

If the loop is built, at least it is in place for a more 'useful' Watford Junction in future - higher frequency services north and south, plus an hourly Manchester (in addition to Birmingham). A shame of course about the Met line, and Bakerloo for that matter - although 4tph DC is ok - it could have really become a big hub again with a lot of development encouraged.

Watford as a station and hub is probably worse than it was in 1996. Worn , poor facilties , very bad access to the car park for pedestrians and not much better for cars as you have to run the gauntlet of a not very good taxi rank and a very basic bus interchange. Single , crowded subway.

Whether it gets 2 tph on the branch , the whole package needs a major revamp.