Should I re-appeal?

[gabaho12]

I mistakenly travelled with an expired railcard and bought a new railcard on the train when I realised. The conductor said it was not valid as it was needed at the point of purchase of the ticket. I refused to provide him with my personal details and he called the British Transport Police who were on the platform when I arrived at my final stop. The BTP acknowledged that it was a civil matter but then said if I refused to give him my details I could be arrested. The BTP took my details and then passed them to the conductor who issued a fine. I didn't think the BTP arrest me for what appeared to be a civil matter.

The conductor said that if I appeal I would likely win it, they just needed to record the appeal on the system and said normally everyone gets 1 chance. This was not the case and they have rejected my appeal.

Is it worth me re-appealing or is there a risk that they could go straight to prosecution if they reject my re-appeal? Will I get an opportunity to pay the fine if I lose the re-appeal?

 

[skyhigh]

I mistakenly travelled with an expired railcard and bought a new railcard on the train when I realised. The conductor said it was not valid as it was needed at the point of purchase of the ticket.

Did you purchase the new Railcard before the conductor checked your ticket, or after they'd already checked your ticket and seen your Railcard was expired?

 

[gabaho12]

Did you purchase the new Railcard before the conductor checked your ticket, or after they'd already checked your ticket and seen your Railcard was after

I bought the new railcard after they checked my ticket

 

[furlong]

You'd need to provide a lot more details. For example was this a Penalty Fare? How long ago had it expired? What train company was this?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jul 2023 ==

If it was a Penalty Fare, then it's a criminal offence not to provide name. address and date of birth if asked:

13.—(1) Where a collector proposes to charge a person a penalty fare under regulation 5(1), that person must, subject to regulation 10(4), provide their name and address and, in respect of England, their date of birth, when required to do so by the collector.
(2) Any person who fails to provide their name and address or, in respect of England, their date of birth, in accordance with paragraph (1) is guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 2 on the standard scale.

 

[gabaho12]

You'd need to provide a lot more details. For example was this a Penalty Fare? How long ago had it expired? What train company was this?

Yes , East Midlands Railway, Penalty fare, expired Feb 2023 (travelled June 2023)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jul 2023 ==

You'd need to provide a lot more details. For example was this a Penalty Fare? How long ago had it expired? What train company was this?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jul 2023 ==

If it was a Penalty Fare, then it's a criminal offence not to provide name. address and date of birth if asked:

Thank you.

 

[Olivine]

I mistakenly travelled with an expired railcard and bought a new railcard on the train when I realised. The conductor said it was not valid as it was needed at the point of purchase of the ticket. I refused to provide him with my personal details and he called the British Transport Police who were on the platform when I arrived at my final stop. The BTP acknowledged that it was a civil matter but then said if I refused to give him my details I could be arrested. The BTP took my details and then passed them to the conductor who issued a fine. I didn't think the BTP arrest me for what appeared to be a civil matter.

The conductor said that if I appeal I would likely win it, they just needed to record the appeal on the system and said normally everyone gets 1 chance. This was not the case and they have rejected my appeal.

Is it worth me re-appealing or is there a risk that they could go straight to prosecution if they reject my re-appeal? Will I get an opportunity to pay the fine if I lose the re-appeal?

Surely if it’s just a PF a then take it on the chin and chalk it down to experience?

Not sure it’s worth your time if there’s no criminality attached to it.

 

[AlterEgo]

I bought the new railcard after they checked my ticket

After? Then you have no grounds of appeal in relation to your ticket and the Penalty Fare was correctly issued, absent any technical defences relating to signage at your origin station. The Penalty Fare is a civil way of disposing of an otherwise criminal matter, albeit under relatively minor Railway Bylaws.

You committed a Bylaw 18 offence:

1. in any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel

And further an offence under Bylaw 23:

1. any person reasonably suspected by an authorised person of breaching or attempting to breach any of these byelaws shall give his name and address when asked by an authorised person.

- until you were advised by the police officer that you really ought to give your name and address.

 

[spag23]

I am not a lawyer but...
I believe the conductor was wrong if he said "everyone gets one chance". This concession applies to a forgotten, but current, Railcard; not an expired one.
And the BTP were wrong if they said it was civil matter; AlterEgo has quoted the actual Bylaws applicable.
But these exchanges make no difference to the OP being in the wrong in having a (well-expired) Railcard.

 

[Segedunum]

The conductor was incorrect to say that "everyone gets one chance", as said above - as you need to have had a valid Railcard at the time of the ticket being presented. "One chance" is when your Railcard can't be shown but you have an in-date one (eg. Dead phone or plastic Railcard left at home).

We can speculate as to why this was, either because they wanted to defuse the situation or were simply unfamiliar with what happens in the background with these things, but in the end it doesn't matter.

I'd recommend paying the Penalty Fare, and being sure that you're extra careful in future. You can always set a reminder in your phone calendar when it's due for renewal, or similar. Remember that a Penalty Fare is meant for when these slip-ups happen - and if it was thought you were up to anything more sinister you'd be reported for prosecution instead.

 

[furlong]

And the BTP were wrong if they said it was civil matter; AlterEgo has quoted the actual Bylaws applicable.

Nothing suggests the BTP were wrong. We've not been told that byelaw 23 was applicable: rather we are told this was a dispute about giving details for a Penalty Fare which falls directly under the PF regulations which I quoted. The railway has options and it made a choice.