Shinkansen trains discussion

[LNW-GW Joint]

Moderator note: Split from Class 800 thread


I haven't got any experience of "bullet" trains in Japan, but the pictures show 3+3 seating in 2nd class and don't look especially roomy or luxurious.
They also have small windows, and the interiors look very airline B737/A320-ish.
No doubt someone will be along to diss all this in a minute...

 

[Beebman]

I haven't got any experience of "bullet" trains in Japan, but the pictures show 3+3 seating in 2nd class and don't look especially roomy or luxurious.
They also have small windows, and the interiors look very airline B737/A320-ish.
No doubt someone will be along to diss all this in a minute...

Hi there!

I've made 3 visits to Japan with quite a lot of travelling on N700s. The 3+2 seating is unreserved and I'd guess might be used mainly for short-distance journeys (e.g. Kyoto-Osaka). Passengers who reserve in advance get 2+2 seating:

I find these seats to be more comfortable than any standard class seats I've encountered in the UK and the trains are very smooth on the high-speed lines. I don't find the windows restrict the view too much and indeed they do line up with the seats. Incidentally all seats can be turned round 180 degrees by use of a foot pedal.

The Green (First) class seats are not much wider but there's rather more legroom.

If you want luxury you can travel in Gran Class (something I've never done!):

I travelled to Bristol last week on a Class 800 IET and it reminded me most of the JR Kyushu Class 885s which run shorter-distance expresses:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/885_series

 

[class387]

No Gran Class on N700s (just on the lines going north from Tokyo) from what I can see and the 2+2 standard only seems to be on the Mizuho/Sakura 8-car sets, which don't reach Tokyo.

Those 885 Series trains look brilliant though.

 

[Three-Nine]

He also states that it is no bullet train, but an okay commuter train, nothing special. Now, this has me wondering, are all the real Shinkansen trains high quality expresses, furnished to a better standard than British trains, or are some of them essentially commuter trains?

Guess it depends on what you mean by "commuter" - the Osaka to Tokyo corridor is obviously heavily used and the journey time is around three hours, which would be long for a commute in the UK but appears to be regarded as "commuter" by some sources. This probably applies less to the further reaches of the shinkansen network.

Having travelled fairly extensively on shinkansen - in some cases, on 7 hours + trips - they are very comfortable trains. I've never had a problem with the windows, though its never really occurred to me until now that they're much more in line with airliner style windows than the typical "long" UK train window. Things that are now considered "mandatory" on UK trains like at-seat plug sockets are only available on newer models (some older models had plug sockets at each coach end) and wi-fi requires registration and again this may be only on the newer models. One thing I've always found noticeable is that depending on the model of shinkansen the luggage space can be a bit limited, though the overhead racks seem to be larger than the UK standard (and theres supposedly a very efficient luggage forwarding service); theres also more of a sense of "space", which I guess is due to loading gauge differences?

As to the Class 800... er... its going to be while before I see them in my part of the world, barring possible diversions...

 

[PacificRail]

He also states that it is no bullet train, but an okay commuter train, nothing special. Now, this has me wondering, are all the real Shinkansen trains high quality expresses, furnished to a better standard than British trains, or are some of them essentially commuter trains?

As Three-Nine said, it depends on what you mean by "commuter" - from my last Japan trip I rode the Sakura service between the Cities of Kitakyushu and Fukuoka. A good number of people traveled just between these two stops in the unreserved standard seating carriages, with most people sanding in the door vestibule area since most of the seats were taken.

In terms of the interiors and furnishings, it depends on the person you ask and the trains you take. Some would say their very basic appearance wise, especially when they see airline arranged seating. I think that their good in both the seating comfort and legroom department, but that is due to the loading gauge being more generous compared to the UK and having different standards i guess.

These are examples of one version of the N700 sets:

Standard Seating (Reserved/Unreserved)

Green Car (Reserved)
basically first class

I haven't got any experience of "bullet" trains in Japan, but the pictures show 2+3 seating in 2nd class and don't look especially roomy or luxurious.
They also have small windows, and the interiors look very airline B737/A320-ish.

I don't know exactly if this is the reason, but some people on Japanese rail forums mention that the airline windows were due to pressures exerted by the high speeds of passing trains and entering tunnels. Though the windows are bigger than what you get on an airplane.

 

[mpthomson]

Even on the first generation bullet train carriage that's at the NRM in York the first impression when you go in is how much wider they are than a UK train. The 3+2 is actually fairly comfortable and the seat pitch on even that means that getting in and out wouldn't have been a drama.

 

[Three-Nine]

In case anyones wondering, the little diagrams on the fold-down tables on the backs of the seats are coach layout information and other general information (e.g. location of toilets in relation to that coach). And, oh, those little things next to the windows on the coach wall are coat hooks.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Rotating seats also guarantee a certain seat pitch and separation to allow the seat movement.
Common in the USA too, where there is certainly plenty of room.
Rather defeats the idea of tables or mixed seating, though.
It must also impact the window view unless the seats are symmetrical about the window.

Just in passing, I'm not sure I like the "ghettoisation" of this discussion, also apparent on HS2 issues.
There are many crossover issues such as IEP with other Hitachi trains, and HS2/WCML operation, which deserve discussion in the same thread.
Just saying...

 

[jopsuk]

I do want to get out to Japan at some point, and riding the Shinkansen would be on the to-do list.

Looking up tech specs, it appears they're typically 3350-3380mm wide, with straight sides. By comparison a Mark 3 or Mark 4 coach is 2700mm wide, with that only being achieved at about seat level- all UK stock curves in towards floor level. To make matters worse, we typically have a heating duct at the intersection of floor and wall, something conspicuously missing from those photos.

So no wonder 3+2 is perfectly viable, and 2+2 is normal of "standard" first class. They have much more usable space.

 

[WideRanger]

No Gran Class on N700s (just on the lines going north from Tokyo) from what I can see and the 2+2 standard only seems to be on the Mizuho/Sakura 8-car sets, which don't reach Tokyo.

This is correct. 2+2 in standard seats (reserved or unreserved) only appears on the less busy routes. The Hikari and Nozomi trains on the Tokaido Shinkansen are all 2+3. They really don't feel cramped at all because they are pretty wide, with very generous seat pitch (which also allows for usefully large seat back tables). However, the 3+3 seats on some of the duplex Tohoko Shinkansen are horrible. No recline, no arm rest and narrow. These sets were designed for commuter work, but found themselves on some longer routes.

 

[WideRanger]

Rotating seats also guarantee a certain seat pitch and separation to allow the seat movement.
Common in the USA too, where there is certainly plenty of room.
Rather defeats the idea of tables or mixed seating, though.
It must also impact the window view unless the seats are symmetrical about the window.

The seats are symetrical around the window, by design. All seats are turned at terminus stations on Shinkansen (normally automatically) so that they are facing forward. This is also the case on non-Shinkasen express trains, and has been for many years. Users can also manually rotate their seats themselves if they want to create a bay of seats. But of course, in that case there won't be a table. This only tends to happen when families or groups of friends are travelling together. Most businesspeople tend to eat, drink and then sleep, especially in the evenings.

 

[class387]

This is correct. 2+2 in standard seats (reserved or unreserved) only appears on the less busy routes. The Hikari and Nozomi trains on the Tokaido Shinkansen are all 2+3. They really don't feel cramped at all because they are pretty wide, with very generous seat pitch (which also allows for usefully large seat back tables). However, the 3+3 seats on some of the duplex Tohoko Shinkansen are horrible. No recline, no arm rest and narrow. These sets were designed for commuter work, but found themselves on some longer routes.

Was going to mention this actually. Top deck on the E4 Shinkansen (Tokyo - Niigata):

 

[Three-Nine]

Just to clarify, not all the seats are configured like that on that particular type, the lower decks (they're double decker sets) and reserved coaches have regular 2+3 configuration (according to Wikipedia). Was initially a bit surprised by that photo as I've travelled on that type and didn't recall the seat layout being like that, but that explains why. Another quirk of the that types double-decker layout is that finding your way back to your seat can require a little bit more mental strain...!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting how the pitch matches the windows, but how every seat is slighly misaligned (you want a window like that slightly in front of you to look out comfortably). Wouldn't have been hard to get that right.

 

[MarkyT]

Top deck on the E4 Shinkansen (Tokyo - Niigata)

Just to note all remaining examples of the E4 series, the last double-decker Shinkansen trains, are to be withdrawn soon and replaced by faster and more comfortable single decker E7s:
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2...decker-shinkansen-trains-phased/#.WfVAQGi0OUk

 

[theageofthetra]

It's worth pointing out that flying is often cheaper and quicker for the busiest routes such as Tokyo/Osaka. We flew Tokyo to Kumamoto in Kyushu and then worked our way back to Osaka using nearly all 2 + 2 seated services + local express trains. It's only when I did a day trip Osaka-Nagoya to visit the Shinkansen & Toyota museums (making good use of the last say of my Japan travel pass) I saw the dreaded 3 + 3 or 3+ 2 & found them even remotely busy.

Even then as a Westerner they seem to always book you into the pair of 2 seats

One of my favorite units were the Thunderbirds which ran the semi fasts Osaka- Kyoto- lovely and comfortable and never busy- free with my Japan travel pass & avoids the packed cheaper commuter services.
Try and use the scenic local services aimed at Japanese tourists - they are a great experience and often have amazing interiors designed by craftsmen from the local prefecture. Plenty of steam hauled excursions too but always try to pre-book as these often sell out.