Sheffield region integrated plan: Suggestions for alternative provision

[tbtc]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/sheffield-city-region-integrated-plan.186433/

Some clear non-starters here. Tram-train all the way to Robin Hood Airport? I'm all for the tram-train, I'd happily surrender Rotherham Central to it, but that'd be a nonsense extension. A stop at MAGNA on the Tram-Train would mean an expensive footbridge (given the expected passenger numbers).

A lot of our problems could be solved by:

• Second platform at Dore
• Electrification of lines from Moorthorpe/ Doncaster - Swinton - Sheffield (allowing local services to be run by fast accelerating EMUs)
• Do something to fix the problem of Rotherham Central (e.g. a northbound train needs to cross the southbound line on the flat, get a path over the single track Holmes Chord, then cross the southbound line on the flat a second time as it rejoins the main line by Aldwarke) << this happens at least three times an hour (two to Doncaster, one to Leeds and occasionally one to York) and is a major problem for local reliability

...but these kind of "plans" seem to be more about Blue Sky Thinking than simple options.

Ideal world, I'd add "remodel Sheffield station to accommodate more terminating services as the current infrastructure isn't up to the job, but that's firmly in the "Crayola" territory!

Not sure why they need a feasibility study into a second train an hour on the Penistone Line, it's really not rocket science? Obviously improvements will need to be made engineering wise to accommodate said extra service.

The infrastructure can struggle to cope with the existing hourly service so you'd want to have a study into demand/ feasibility before committing to the cost of additional sections of double track.

Also, there are four/hour from Sheffield to Barnsley already (a mixture of non-stop from Meadowhall and stoppers), so it may be that a second Penistone service would be at the expense of the proposed London - Barnsley service. At least nobody is suggesting putting a London service over the single track Penistone line though!

If they did re-open the Woodhead line to Penistone, they should reinstate a service to Stocksbridge too while they are at it.

My understanding is that the Fox Valley shopping centre was built with a Stocksbridge train station in mind (I'm not saying it'd be a great idea - it's a long way from residential Stocksbridge and there's no simple solution at the "Sheffield" end - but at least there's space for a station if the pigs ever did float off into the sky)

Just seen there are proposed MML services to Barnsley again, that's interesting too.

Would that mean dumping a unit on the single track line between Barnsley and Dodworth for (maybe) half an hour whilst it waited to head back to London? That'll make reliability on the Penistone branch interesting. Or is there space elsewhere around Barnsley for a (two hundred metre?) train to lay over? Bearing in mind we are talking about the future when full length bi-mode trains should be running MML services (instead of short 222s)

Barnsley MML is easy to do just extending an existing service though capacity might be an issue and requires some work. Penistone to Deepcar may have another advantage it would reduce journey times to Sheffield by providing a more direct route. It serves Wortley as well

The population of Wortley within walking distance of a station there is possibly going to be above single figures but not great (especially given how high the A629 is compared to the railway close to the bottom of the valley. Wouldn't fancy walking home up the hill in the dark!

Yes, nice to see that they're looking at Meadowhead and the Northern General, both would benefit from being on the tram (one line perhaps!) Slightly surprised tram/tram train to Dore isn't mentioned specifically but then I guess with HS2 as well there may not really be room for it down the MML corridoor. There may be room to extend a Northern stopper through Sheffield to Dore however and turn it there (easily do-able with two platforms I'd have thought) and would free up a platform at Midland - this would increase connectivity and give Dore a second train per hour to Sheffield.

Ideal world Crayonista time, but Dore would be a great terminus for all of the local trains that clog up Sheffield Midland - a couple of terminating platforms there (in addition to the Hope Valley and MML lines) would make a big difference to reliability. It'll never happen, of course...

I’m not even sure they were that behind it when the City Region Mayor was just on Calendar. Basically saying ‘we needed to create a list, so have created a list’

It’s almost a list of anything they could think of, a long list from a brainstorming session, very little is likely to ever get anywhere.

I'm annoyed at this kind of approach - I can see why it has to be done, but a lot of the time it involves wasting time/money listing daft schemes from all far flung areas so that "stakeholders" feel that they are being represented - hence the feasibility studies or lip service paid to box-ticking proposals that are only listed to give some backwater place the idea that they are being listened to.

Personally, I'd rather see a list of three or four plans that were serious contenders (but, I appreciate that you need a messy smorgasbord of proposals from Hatfield to Penistone to Dore and all points in between, so everyone gets to feel important)

 

[Iskra]

Some clear non-starters here. Tram-train all the way to Robin Hood Airport? I'm all for the tram-train, I'd happily surrender Rotherham Central to it, but that'd be a nonsense extension.

My understanding is that the Fox Valley shopping centre was built with a Stocksbridge train station in mind (I'm not saying it'd be a great idea - it's a long way from residential Stocksbridge and there's no simple solution at the "Sheffield" end - but at least there's space for a station if the pigs ever did float off into the sky)

Would that mean dumping a unit on the single track line between Barnsley and Dodworth for (maybe) half an hour whilst it waited to head back to London? That'll make reliability on the Penistone branch interesting. Or is there space elsewhere around Barnsley for a (two hundred metre?) train to lay over? Bearing in mind we are talking about the future when full length bi-mode trains should be running MML services (instead of short 222s)

Personally, I'd rather see a list of three or four plans that were serious contenders (but, I appreciate that you need a messy smorgasbord of proposals from Hatfield to Penistone to Dore and all points in between, so everyone gets to feel important)

I think a normal heavy rail station for Doncaster Sheffield Airport would be the most sensible solution.

As much as I'd like that to be true about a Stocksbridge Station at Fox Valley, knowing the owner, I'm not sure it is. Clearly, it would be the logical place for a station, but I don't think it was specifically designed that way. I actually got a train to Stocksbridge today (railtour) and the track is in good condition. There would be obvious, but not insurmountable issues with Liberty Steel's own rail operations and you'd ideally need a new station in Sheffield to run a service into. It is not actually far to residential Stocksbridge and the retail park has its own residential development too. There is another big development going in at Oughtibridge too so the market for rail is increasing and the Fox Valley development has raised house prices and made it a more attractive place to live. The steel works work force is also increasing and it is a gateway to the Pennines too.

That would be the issue with Barnsley; accommodating the unit at the platform and what you do with it, it would actually make more sense to run through to Wakefield Kirkgate or Leeds as per the original SRA plan. I assume they have a plan for this. This obvious issue is why I found it surprising that Barnsley services had been resurrected. However, Barnsley is due to lose a Northern semi-fast to the Wakefield Westgate route isn't it?

All ideas need to look pretty on maps too...

 

[marcouk2]

That would be the issue with Barnsley; accommodating the unit at the platform and what you do with it, it would actually make more sense to run through to Wakefield Kirkgate or Leeds as per the original SRA plan. I assume they have a plan for this. This obvious issue is why I found it surprising that Barnsley services had been resurrected. However, Barnsley is due to lose a Northern semi-fast to the Wakefield Westgate route isn't it?

All ideas need to look pretty on maps too...

I agree that if they're reinstating a Barnsley - London link then you might as well extend it to Wakefield, might give it a better chance to survive this time.

Yes the Leeds/Bradford to Nottingham service should be going Westgate instead of Kirkgate but there's supposedly a Leeds - Sheffield via Barnsley semi fast to replace it.

 

[tbtc]

I think a normal heavy rail station for Doncaster Sheffield Airport would be the most sensible solution

IMHO an Airport station should be low down the list of priorities but if there's to be one then a simple (hourly?) shuttle from Doncaster run by a 150 or something similar should suffice.

That's a long way on a toiletless tram-train - given the short turnaround at Cathedral at the western end of the current service (fitting in between ten yellow/blue services per hour, plus the half hourly reversing purple service), it'd be a nightmare operationally.

Would it cross the ECML on the flat at Doncaster? Six times per hour in total? (three each way)

Replace the current Sheffield - Adwick/ Hull stoppers? In which case Mexborough/ Conisbrough lose their Meadowhall service, and get a much slower service to Sheffield (stopping at Hyde Park, Nunnery Square etc)..

And why would you electrify the tram-train all the way to the far side of Donny instead of wiring the heavy rail service through Meadowhall? Seems like a complete gimmick (since "tram-train" sounds new/ fun/ exciting).

Just wire Sheffield to Doncaster/ Moorthorpe properly and give us some cascaded 100mph DMUs. That then makes the stoppers (currently timed for 75mph DMUs) closer to the longer distance services.

As much as I'd like that to be true about a Stocksbridge Station at Fox Valley, knowing the owner, I'm not sure it is. Clearly, it would be the logical place for a station, but I don't think it was specifically designed that way. I actually got a train to Stocksbridge today (railtour) and the track is in good condition. There would be obvious, but not insurmountable issues with Liberty Steel's own rail operations and you'd ideally need a new station in Sheffield to run a service into. It is not actually far to residential Stocksbridge and the retail park has its own residential development too. There is another big development going in at Oughtibridge too so the market for rail is increasing and the Fox Valley development has raised house prices and made it a more attractive place to live. The steel works work force is also increasing and it is a gateway to the Pennines too

Hope the rail tour was good - didn't realise there was one on today.

The main problem I have with Stocksbridge is that you'd be replacing the current arrangement (tram every ten/twelve minutes from Cathedral/ University etc connecting with a bus every ten/twelve minutes, which goes all around Deepcar/ East Whitwell etc) for a long walk up to Victoria (which is a long way from the heart of the city) to an hourly (maybe half hourly?) train to Fox Valley to then walk up the hill to where most of the houses in Deepcar/ Stocksbridge are - you'd probably want another bus connection for most commuters.

The line doesn't serve much population as it heads out of Sheffield (a station near Kelham Island might be popular but it'd only be a couple of minutes from Victoria, and there's almost nothing else at Victoria)... maybe a station near the A61 I guess?

I agree that if they're reinstating a Barnsley - London link then you might as well extend it to Wakefield, might give it a better chance to survive this time.

Yes the Leeds/Bradford to Nottingham service should be going Westgate instead of Kirkgate but there's supposedly a Leeds - Sheffield via Barnsley semi fast to replace it.

I'd agree with Kirgate as a more sensible place to terminate (esp if the new EMR stock is maintained at Crofton!)

My understanding was that the half hourly semi-fast via Kirkgate/ Barnsley will continue as per hour (but with the extension to Nottingham taken over by the "new" Bradford service).

The current set up is that one of the semi-fast services is overtaken by the XC service, so if the plan is for the Bradford - Nottingham service to run half an hour apart from the XC then that presumably means both of the semi-fasts will be overtaken, which means they'll not have any/many Leeds - Sheffield passengers on them (unless there's a major re-cast, but the current xx:38 ex Leeds is tied to the paths available reversing out of Sheffield towards Lincoln, so that may not be easy).

 

[johnnychips]

@tbtc does talk a lot of sense. The current amount of passengers at DSA (Doncaster-Sheffield Airport) hardly justifies a dedicated bus service from Sheffield (X6 - never seen more than four people on it), and the bus service from Doncaster (57a/c) has recently replaced the X4 so it serves local areas rather than just carrying a lot of fresh air.

In addition, FlyBe are reducing their services from DSA, though to be fair WizzAir will be introducing a service from Chisinau from Xmas (yes, I had to Google it too).

Don't get me wrong, I really want DSA to succeed. It's a great little airport that I have used many times. But there's no way it deserves the expense of a train link.

 

[Iskra]

@tbtc does talk a lot of sense. The current amount of passengers at DSA (Doncaster-Sheffield Airport) hardly justifies a dedicated bus service from Sheffield (X6 - never seen more than four people on it), and the bus service from Doncaster (57a/c) has recently replaced the X4 so it serves local areas rather than just carrying a lot of fresh air.

In addition, FlyBe are reducing their services from DSA, though to be fair WizzAir will be introducing a service from Chisinau from Xmas (yes, I had to Google it too).

Don't get me wrong, I really want DSA to succeed. It's a great little airport that I have used many times. But there's no way it deserves the expense of a train link.

The current Doncaster Lincoln train passes the end of the runway. Literally all you have to do is build a small station and insert an extra call into an existing service. That’s a pretty cheap way of serving an airport.

 

[johnnychips]

The current Doncaster Lincoln train passes the end of the runway. Literally all you have to do is build a small station and insert an extra call into an existing service. That’s a pretty cheap way of serving an airport.

Low Moor station cost £10.8 million. The days when you could just build cheap wooden structures are gone.

 

[edwin_m]

The current Doncaster Lincoln train passes the end of the runway. Literally all you have to do is build a small station and insert an extra call into an existing service. That’s a pretty cheap way of serving an airport.

It may go past the end of the runway but it's about 1000m from the terminal. That's too far to walk so would need at shuttle bus at least. With the low number of flights and the dispersed ground destinations of the passengers, along with most of them being holidaymakers who will probably arrive by car with a lot of luggage, it's difficult to see how it migth stack up economically.

 

[adrock1976]

Low Moor station cost £10.8 million. The days when you could just build cheap wooden structures are gone.

Excluding the Bradford Interchange - London Kings Cross Grand Central trains that call, the frequency at Low Moor is a very poor 60 minutes, which for an urban area does not encourage people to leave cars at home and use public transport.

Low Moor needs a frequency of at least every 30 minutes minimum, and over time, it may be worthwhile calling everything there if and when passenger numbers rise rapidly.

 

[Iskra]

Low Moor station cost £10.8 million. The days when you could just build cheap wooden structures are gone.

£10.8m is pocket money these days. Especially compared to electrification works for a tram train.

 

[edwin_m]

Excluding the Bradford Interchange - London Kings Cross Grand Central trains that call, the frequency at Low Moor is a very poor 60 minutes, which for an urban area does not encourage people to leave cars at home and use public transport.

Low Moor needs a frequency of at least every 30 minutes minimum, and over time, it may be worthwhile calling everything there if and when passenger numbers rise rapidly.

I'd like to thing the Calder Valley gets a proper re-cast once the new stock has arrived, to get rid of anomalies like this. Putting Low More in the working timetable wouldn't do any harm either.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Well their list shows ambition I'll give them that.

Rather than tram train to doncaster which is ludicrous in my opinion tram extensions within Sheffield should be looked at as a priority or I think the network risks Being left behind.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I'll add that station for DSA is also a no goer for me. Too seasonal and also not remoetely big enough!

 

[DanTrain]

I'll add that station for DSA is also a no goer for me. Too seasonal and also not remoetely big enough!

As much ad I’d like to think otherwise you’re probably correct. Isn’t it pretty much the same situation as Teeside Airport with a railway track awkwardly far from the terminal and just look at that...!

That's a long way on a toiletless tram-train - given the short turnaround at Cathedral at the western end of the current service (fitting in between ten yellow/blue services per hour, plus the half hourly reversing purple service), it'd be a nightmare operationally.

Would it cross the ECML on the flat at Doncaster? Six times per hour in total? (three each way)

Replace the current Sheffield - Adwick/ Hull stoppers? In which case Mexborough/ Conisbrough lose their Meadowhall service, and get a much slower service to Sheffield (stopping at Hyde Park, Nunnery Square etc)..

And why would you electrify the tram-train all the way to the far side of Donny instead of wiring the heavy rail service through Meadowhall? Seems like a complete gimmick (since "tram-train" sounds new/ fun/ exciting).

Just wire Sheffield to Doncaster/ Moorthorpe properly and give us some cascaded 100mph DMUs. That then makes the stoppers (currently timed for 75mph DMUs) closer to the longer distance services.

I don’t actually think this would cause too much of a problem in Cathedral, trams operate on a line-of-sight basis so have smaller headways than trains, as long as a quick turnaround is achievable the timetable is slightly less important if it’s running late.

However I agree with your other points re tram train, it does seem like a mad idea when electrifacation would happily suffice. If Sheffield - Leeds via Westgate and Sheffield to Donny were wired, they could be run with a large fleet of old EMUs with the Doncaster - Leeds service (323s or the like). Also, this would enable XC to run bi-modes which could stay under wires all the way to Chesterfield (with TPE electrifacation and HS2). This is somewhat of a long term aim I suspect but probably (hopefully) not totally pie-in-the-sky!

 

[The Ham]

What difference is the 2tph currently proposed HS2 service between Birmingham & Leeds calling at Sheffield going to make to the availability of train paths for any of the potential services listed above?

 

[edwin_m]

What difference is the 2tph currently proposed HS2 service between Birmingham & Leeds calling at Sheffield going to make to the availability of train paths for any of the potential services listed above?

I suspect this is one of the main reasons to consider expanding tram-train beyond Rotherham to Doncaster and elsewhere, as they wouldn't go into Sheffield Midland and could use the ex-GC route through the Don Valley to avoid conflicts on the Holmes Chord and at Aldwarke with the trains that now loop through Rotherham Central.

 

[johnnychips]

Edwin, please could you explain where the GC route runs through the Don Valley. I tried Googling to no avail.

 

[edwin_m]

Edwin, please could you explain where the GC route runs through the Don Valley. I tried Googling to no avail.

It's the eastern of the two routes, running through Rotherham Central and then on to Mexborough and Doncaster. Doncaster trains via Rotherham Central now cross onto the Midland route at Aldwarke and re-join the GC at Swinton, both BR-era connections, but the orignal route between Aldwarke and Mexborough survives for freight.

 

[johnnychips]

Thanks for your quick reply.

 

[Bantamzen]

It may go past the end of the runway but it's about 1000m from the terminal. That's too far to walk so would need at shuttle bus at least. With the low number of flights and the dispersed ground destinations of the passengers, along with most of them being holidaymakers who will probably arrive by car with a lot of luggage, it's difficult to see how it migth stack up economically.

Indeed, although this is also the approach proposed for the LBA Parkway (with the added fun of a steep assent to the terminal building from the station's possible location), it is backed up with it's parkway status which will mean it will be far more popular with locals driving in from the North & West of Leeds than it will be for LBA passengers, and this is with an airport with at least four times the loadings of DSA. There just isn't sufficient demand at the moment for a call at DSA, not until at the very least a lot of the housing & light industrial developments proposed for the area actually become a reality.

 

[njamescouk]

penistone - stocksbridge - sheffield would be rammed with commuters, would halve the journey time at the cost of a bit of a walk in sheffield.