Securing Private Areas on FCC EMUs

[rdwarr]

I dont think that such behaviour is exclusively by season ticket holders.
However on rush hour trains the majority of travelers probably hold season tickets, and it is therefore likey that the majority of wrong behaviour will also be by season ticket holders.

Yes, if it occurs at peak times. But, even if as many as 1 in 1000 Season Ticket holders commits "wrong behaviour" that's a long way from saying that "Season ticket holders seem to think they are exempt from the railway byelaws". Adding the word "Some" at the start would have been fine though.

In fact, Season Ticket holders are far more likely to understand the rules than occasional travellers. There are always a small number who think they are above the law (or that it's too trivial to worry about) and they are the ones that we hear about here.

Perhaps it's time for a "Season Ticket holder gets to work and back safely every day, doesn't cause trouble and doesn't complain when the fares go up" story. There are thousands of us.

 

[455driver]

Perhaps it's time for a "Season Ticket holder gets to work and back safely every day, doesn't cause trouble and doesn't complain when the fares go up" story. There are thousands of us.

More like millions of you to be honest.

 

[Tibbs]

Its ok saying change the locks but to what?


What is going to be easier in a time of emergency, whipping your key from its holder on your belt and its straight in the hole and open, or messing roundin your pockets for a bunch of keys, finding the right one then trying to get it in the hole properly when your hands are shaking because of the situation?

The door to the front of my block has a plate and you wave a plastic fob at it and it unlocks. Fast & easy. That would work in this situation.

Needless to say I'm not considering cost here, or installation practicalities. Just the need for fast access when needed and secure when not.

 

[Murph]

The door to the front of my block has a plate and you wave a plastic fob at it and it unlocks. Fast & easy. That would work in this situation.

Needless to say I'm not considering cost here, or installation practicalities. Just the need for fast access when needed and secure when not.

There's a potential failure mode for EMUs where that could be a very bad design. Primary to secondary winding short on the main transformer resulting in the lock electronics being smoked or crashed by 25kV before the breakers open.

Even if sufficient reliability can be achieved, capital cost and installation practicality can be met, there's a major operational practicality to be considered. If the electronic keys are to be better than generic mechanical keys, they need to be uniquely numbered and the lock needs to have a constantly (e.g. daily) updated access list with a large list of allowed or denied serial numbers. If the keys are not unique, the sheer number of them in circulation pretty much guarantees that some will end up in the wrong hands before too long.

From an operational and safety perspective, that access list probably shouldn't be part of the main TMS, if it's necessary to open the door to reset/startup the TMS under certain conditions. That means that the access list probably needs to be downloaded into the lock controller itself, making it a more costly controller due to the size of the list (don't think generic PC pricing here, as generic PCs are likely quite unsuitable for the purpose).

 

[trc666]

Wow, generalise much?

I'm a season ticket holder and I've never done any of these these things.

Your point (whatever it is) is therefore invalid.

Maybe I should have worded my point better, not ALL season ticket holders are like this (I myself am a season ticket holder too albeit on Oyster) however from what I see and have to deal with working at my station and on my commutes to and from work a lot of the byelaw breaches (tailgating, cycling on stations etc) are done by regular commuters who happen to be season ticket holders.

 

[Aictos]

Bottom line is that area is off limits to non staff, I know BTP and NXEC did a revenue sting a few years ago at my home station stopping people going though a staff only gate, the amount of stuff people had on them just to save 5 mins instead of walking though the proper (main) entrance such as screwdrivers galore.

I think another time a revenue sting was done there, some passenger with a rail staff pass/rail staff dependant pass got rather abusive because she was told to use the main entrance - her 7 year old son was no better.

It's just I can't understand why people struggle to understand that the area in question is not for public use, there are signs available so well done on the TOC and BTP for taking action.

 

[A-driver]

I can confirm that this is a very regular occurrence and often people force the exterior doors open - if you pull hard enough they open enough to squeeze in.

On busy services I delay releasing doors for a couple if secs to see if I loose interlock through people doing this. I have caught a few people out this way.

I know of one driver who went back to kick people out of a vestibule and even found one argumentative man with his laptop plugged into the power point in the vestibule who refused to move as he had no battery power left in his computer. The train didn't move until he left.

These stings happen from time to time when there are enough reports from drivers to justify them.

It seems the problem is more people braking in through the outside doors than using the internal ones though as I always check the lock when changing ends at moorgate and have rarely found one unlocked (unless people lick them when they get off).

And to confirm- the exterior doors have 'private' written in them as does the internal door.

 

[johnb]

It seems the problem is more people braking in through the outside doors than using the internal ones though as I always check the lock when changing ends at moorgate and have rarely found one unlocked (unless people lick them when they get off).

That sounds horribly unhygienic

 

[jon0844]

Tried to get photos inside the vestibule/cab area but the windows were filthy.. one for another day.

It's true that the only warning signs would be obscured if the door was open, but I really don't believe that the doors are left open. People either use a key and open the door and close behind them (otherwise, they'd have surely been spotted by the many train staff that sit on the train, or RPIs) or gain access from the side (platform) doors.

If one of these doors was left open, I expect the noise would be such that someone else would close it too.

Seeing as there's a handle, like the 317s, I presume it only takes a tug of this to open the door when the doors are unlocked? I didn't dare try... Perhaps this is the way most people get on, as I saw happen at FPK in full view of staff on a 317/1 - who didn't do anything as it was open for passenger use.

The cab on a FCC 313 seems to only have a pull handle to open, no lock.

 

[A-driver]

Tried to get photos inside the vestibule/cab area but the windows were filthy.. one for another day.

It's true that the only warning signs would be obscured if the door was open, but I really don't believe that the doors are left open. People either use a key and open the door and close behind them (otherwise, they'd have surely been spotted by the many train staff that sit on the train, or RPIs) or gain access from the side (platform) doors.

If one of these doors was left open, I expect the noise would be such that someone else would close it too.

Seeing as there's a handle, like the 317s, I presume it only takes a tug of this to open the door when the doors are unlocked? I didn't dare try... Perhaps this is the way most people get on, as I saw happen at FPK in full view of staff on a 317/1 - who didn't do anything as it was open for passenger use.

The cab on a FCC 313 seems to only have a pull handle to open, no lock.

View attachment 13399

Not quite-317 vestibule doors open with a tug unless that cab has a key in. 313s don't, they need to be forced and it takes quite a lot if force to.

 

[Dave1987]

Tried to get photos inside the vestibule/cab area but the windows were filthy.. one for another day.

It's true that the only warning signs would be obscured if the door was open, but I really don't believe that the doors are left open. People either use a key and open the door and close behind them (otherwise, they'd have surely been spotted by the many train staff that sit on the train, or RPIs) or gain access from the side (platform) doors.

If one of these doors was left open, I expect the noise would be such that someone else would close it too.

Seeing as there's a handle, like the 317s, I presume it only takes a tug of this to open the door when the doors are unlocked? I didn't dare try... Perhaps this is the way most people get on, as I saw happen at FPK in full view of staff on a 317/1 - who didn't do anything as it was open for passenger use.

The cab on a FCC 313 seems to only have a pull handle to open, no lock.

View attachment 13399

Think you will find that door needs a carriage key to open it. Notice the small square hole.

 

[A-driver]

Think you will find that door needs a carriage key to open it. Notice the small square hole.

He is thinking they are like 317s which just pull open when released to allow access when units are coupled together and that area is open to the public. As I said earlier, 313s are different and will only open without a key if you really force them-which I have seen people do in the rush hour. If nothing else, its not good for the door and it has been known for trains to come out of service as passengers have forced those doors open and broken them.

 

[BestWestern]

Tried to get photos inside the vestibule/cab area but the windows were filthy.. one for another day.

It's true that the only warning signs would be obscured if the door was open, but I really don't believe that the doors are left open. People either use a key and open the door and close behind them (otherwise, they'd have surely been spotted by the many train staff that sit on the train, or RPIs) or gain access from the side (platform) doors.

If one of these doors was left open, I expect the noise would be such that someone else would close it too.

Seeing as there's a handle, like the 317s, I presume it only takes a tug of this to open the door when the doors are unlocked? I didn't dare try... Perhaps this is the way most people get on, as I saw happen at FPK in full view of staff on a 317/1 - who didn't do anything as it was open for passenger use.

The cab on a FCC 313 seems to only have a pull handle to open, no lock.

View attachment 13399

If you're referring to the external cab doors, - I presume you are as you posted a photo of one! - then these doors are not 'locked' or 'unlocked', they simply remain closed as the passenger doors do when not released. These doors are held shut by the main door system, which works using air rather than any form of manual lock. It's common on older units with sliding doors to be able to force the doors open ajar if you pull them hard enough, and I presume that is what's happening here. The proper way of opening the door would be by use of a carriage key inserted into the slot at platform level and turned from 'normal' to 'open'. The door should be interlocked and the train won't move if it is open.

If people are entering here it would be by one of these methods. If they are forcing the door then there is clear grounds to charge them with interfering with a train or whatever the specific offence is, and presumably the same charge could be applied to anybody illicitly using a carriage or square end key to gain access.