Safety aspects of overcrowded trains

[thedbdiboy]

There have been lots of changes to the internal design requirements of trains in the last 30 years or so to deal with mitigating impact injuries. It's the reason why all train seats are high backed now (some may recall the low-backed seats that were originally installed in BR's sliding door suburban fleets). Fire resistance is set at a high bar. The reason you can't get big cases in the overhead racks is because in the past, large cases in the capacious overhead racks of old flew off and caused injuries in collisions. Passenger carrying areas are protected by safety cells in a way that did not exist with many of the slam door trains. So there has been attention and investment in this area

 

[Bletchleyite]

The reason you can't get big cases in the overhead racks is because in the past, large cases in the capacious overhead racks of old flew off and caused injuries in collisions.

This isn't true. Overhead luggage racks in the latest generation of trains are much larger than any previous generation unless you go back to the Mark 1 or Classes 150/156. The CAFs are particularly big and really huge cases will easily fit, but the 80x aren't tiny either, nor are the Aventras.

Notably small are 158s, *Stars (170s and all Electrostars, though curiously they are larger in first class on the former) and 175/180.

 

[thedbdiboy]

This isn't true. Overhead luggage racks in the latest generation of trains are much larger than any previous generation unless you go back to the Mark 1 or Classes 150/156. The CAFs are particularly big and really huge cases will easily fit, but the 80x aren't tiny either, nor are the Aventras.

Notably small are 158s, *Stars (170s and all Electrostars, though curiously they are larger in first class on the former) and 175/180.

The point is, that they are designed to retain the luggage in them. I assume that in the CAF units ect they have found space within the loading gauge to secure the contents. And yes, I was going back to Mk1s and EPBs, I'm old enough to remember them

 

[Bletchleyite]

The point is, that they are designed to retain the luggage in them.

The 80x ones aren't particularly well designed in this regard, hence the Lumo incident, they are more or less horizontal with no lip. LNER have added bigger dividers to them to stop cases sliding along or being placed on top of the low dividers, though. But they certainly aren't small as you suggested.

The CAF ones are both larger and more tilted backwards so there should be less chance of something coming off.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

There's a very good reason it doesn't sound in the cab,,namely because the buttons are frequently pressed spuriously, either by people thinking it's the toilet flush button, or the buttons by the wheelchair spaces being leant on or pressed by inquisitive children.

If you consider that if it did sound in the cab, the driver would be required to stop and investigate on every occasion, that's a lot of delays, not to mention the distraction whilst actually driving.

Yes the issue should be sorted out, however there is still a shortage of guards and those that there are can't be compelled to work overtime that they don't want to. Late shifts on Saturdays being one such occasion where people don't want to have to deal with drunken and anti-social behaviour when they don't have to, and frankly I don't blame them.

Fit an intercom along with the alarm (and which only becomes active if the alarm is pressed)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's a very good reason it doesn't sound in the cab,,namely because the buttons are frequently pressed spuriously, either by people thinking it's the toilet flush button, or the buttons by the wheelchair spaces being leant on or pressed by inquisitive children.

One assumes they do sound in the cab on DOO trains? So that isn't insurmountable. And on some older ones e.g. I think 15x (unless they changed it when they refitted the toilets) it's not a separate call for aid anyway, it's just a passcom.

 

[Lewisham2221]

One assumes they do sound in the cab on DOO trains? So that isn't insurmountable. And on some older ones e.g. I think 15x (unless they changed it when they refitted the toilets) it's not a separate call for aid anyway, it's just a passcom.

Yeah, PRM modified 15x units have a separate call for aid now, although it's just an alarm rather than an intercom type system.

 

[Hairyspotter]

Fit an intercom along with the alarm (and which only becomes active if the alarm is pressed)?

That's how it was originally set up as built. Please see the earlier response regarding spurious activations.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2025 ==

One assumes they do sound in the cab on DOO trains? So that isn't insurmountable. And on some older ones e.g. I think 15x (unless they changed it when they refitted the toilets) it's not a separate call for aid anyway, it's just a passcom.

Correct. For example on a class 170 it's just a passcom. Which frequently gets operated when in a toilet and people can't tell the difference between a big red button marked "Alarm" and a button labelled "flush"

 

[Vexed]

Which frequently gets operated when in a toilet and people can't tell the difference between a big red button marked "Alarm" and a button labelled "flush"

I has this recently, we left a station a few minutes late and after departure the guard made quite a terse announcement about not mixing them up.

 

[sir_gummerz]

In my opinion, the rail industry can be very double standards to do with safety, a prime example being with Cross Country, where according to the RMT, it is safer to have a crush loaded single voyager, than a double voyager with plenty of space, but no train manager in one of the units.....

That dispute has nothing to do with the RMT saying its not safe, and everything to do with the operator not being willing to offer the training or pay for those additional responsibilities

 

[Yorkshire09876]

That's how it was originally set up as built. Please see the earlier response regarding spurious activations.

Bad design then - change the position and appearance of the button so that people don't get so easily confused.

And get BTP after those who press the button as a prank - their adverts are keen to tell us that they will 'sort' things, after all!

 

[styles]

Correct. For example on a class 170 it's just a passcom. Which frequently gets operated when in a toilet and people can't tell the difference between a big red button marked "Alarm" and a button labelled "flush"

It has just occurred to me that probably 95% ish of the times I've heard an alarm used in a toilet, it's been on a train.

 

[Bikeman78]

The reason for that is because there needs to be a competent person present in the second set to attend to any calls for aid, which do not sound in the driving cab when operated.

How does that help if the set that is in use is so full that no one can reasonably move along the train? I have been on crush loaded trains where I couldn't move from the door that I boarded at. I once stood next to an open droplight (it was a hot day) on an HST from Reading to Newport. It wasn't great but it was better than waiting an indeterminate time for the following train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2025 ==

One assumes they do sound in the cab on DOO trains? So that isn't insurmountable. And on some older ones e.g. I think 15x (unless they changed it when they refitted the toilets) it's not a separate call for aid anyway, it's just a passcom.

I have literally never been on a DOO train that has stopped out of course owing to a passcom activation. Hard to understand why it would be a bigger problem on voyagers.

 

[Hairyspotter]

How does that help if the set that is in use is so full that no one can reasonably move along the train? I have been on crush loaded trains where I couldn't move from the door that I boarded at. I once stood next to an open droplight (it was a hot day) on an HST from Reading to Newport. It wasn't great but it was better than waiting an indeterminate time for the following train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2025 ==


I have literally never been on a DOO train that has stopped out of course owing to a passcom activation. Hard to understand why it would be a bigger problem on voyagers.

To reset a passcom on both a 170 and a 22x requires the handle to be reset with a T key. In both cases, until the handle is reset the brake loop on the train is effectively open and the brake applied, the driver can override this but only to stop the train in a suitable location to investigate and reset if on a DOO train. The rules don't allow for driving miles on end with the override button held in, so I'd say you've been fortunate in your journeys thus far.

 

[Undiscovered]

deleted

 

[officewalla]

London Underground trains can routinely become very crowded. It may be uncomfortable for some passengers, and it may make getting out at your stop difficult, but it's been the situation for decades and regular users accept that that's how things are.

When I travelled to school by tube in the 1950s, the front two or three cars on the Central Line between Holborn and Chancery Lane could be really packed. Some people claimed to have lifted their feet off the floor and remained wedged in place by the people around them. Probably exaggerated.

If you were to try to limit the number of passengers on board in circumstances like that, the time involved in hauling excess people off, the number of staff required to do it, and the effects on the next few services, would be interesting to say the least.

Many people on here will have seen videos of metro services in Japan and elsewhere showing the staff whose job it is to push people onto the trains to get them as full as possible.

If a guard can't get through a train to check tickets, that's not the end of the world, especially as it's not unknown for checks not to take place when a train isn't crowded.

What if the guard cannot get through in an emergency? Not a big issue, partly because a substantial number of services don't have a guard. And how many times does a guard need to get through anyway, compared with the regular inconvenience to hundreds of passengers if a limit was placed on the number allowed to be on board?

Slightly off topic but what is the point of the guard then if not to deal with emergencies? Make every service a DOO and stuff the passengers in?