Romsey - Southampton via Eastleigh

[yorkie]

I don't agree with that view, and I'm sure the general consensus on uk.r when it cropped up a few years ago, was that the through trains are valid, break of journey is valid, and as long as you resume your journey on a through train it is valid.

The wording you quote says it "may" not be a permitted route, not it "will" not be a permitted route. It also says if a change of train is "necessary", well if you choose to break your journey then the change wasn't necessary, it was something you chose to do (and are within your rights to do).

 

[OwlMan]

I don't agree with that view, and I'm sure the general consensus on uk.r when it cropped up a few years ago, was that the through trains are valid, break of journey is valid, and as long as you resume your journey on a through train it is valid.

The wording you quote says it "may" not be a permitted route, not it "will" not be a permitted route. It also says if a change of train is "necessary", well if you choose to break your journey then the change wasn't necessary, it was something you chose to do (and are within your rights to do).

It says it may not be a permitted route because you could be travelling on a through train on a otherwise permitted route; the wording has to be may to cover this.

13. The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a through train;
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled
passenger services; or
(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide
(details as to how you can obtain this information will be available
when you buy your ticket).
(b) If you are using a Zonal Ticket you may travel in trains which take any route within the zone or zones shown on the ticket.
(c) Together, the routes referred to in (a) (ii), (a) (iii) and (b) above are the “permitted routes”
(d) The use of some tickets may be restricted to trains which take:
(i) routes passing through, or avoiding, particular locations; or
(ii) the most direct route.
These restrictions will be shown on the ticket.

But under the NCOC It is NOT a permitted route unless it is one of the following:
1) it is the shortest route;
2) shown in the National Routeing Guide;
or 3) If you are using a Zonal Ticket you may travel in trains which take any route within the zone or zones shown on the ticket
In this case none of these apply so it is not a permitted route.
However (from NCOC)
a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a through train;

You are not doing this (to travel between the stations shown on the ticket on a through train you can not alight at an intermediate station) so the ticket is not valid to Eastleigh.

As I stated previously I am not saying I agree with this - this is how it was explained to me by a TOC employee; and the logic is there even if you do not agree with it.


Peter

 

[yorkie]

There's nothing new there and I still don't, and will never, agree with that. I strongly disagree.

You are still travelling on a through train irrespective of whether or not you break your journey.

Just because you get off, that doesn't mean the train isn't a through train.

In the same way that if you close your eyes during an eclipse, that doesn't mean the eclipse didn't happen just because you didn't see it.

 

[OwlMan]

There's nothing new there and I still don't, and will never, agree with that. I strongly disagree.

You are still travelling on a through train irrespective of whether or not you break your journey.

Just because you get off, that doesn't mean the train isn't a through train.

In the same way that if you close your eyes during an eclipse, that doesn't mean the eclipse didn't happen just because you didn't see it.

Yes but what they were telling me is that the wording is:

(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a through train;

- That is Between Station A & B (as on the ticket) on a (that is a [i.e. one - not more than one]) through train. As soon as you get off that that train at Station C you are no longer travelling between A & B on a through train (you are either travelling from A to C or from A to B on more than one through train).

Whether you agree or not that is what it literally says, and is backed up as the other parts use the word trains not the phrase "A train"..

ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled
passenger services; or
(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide
(details as to how you can obtain this information will be available
when you buy your ticket).



Peter

 

[yorkie]

A through train is still a through train.

If it's only valid on one train, which train? Is that one train per day that they pick at random or what? And how do you get back on a return ticket if it's only valid on one train?

For this person to be so nit-picky about the wording and claim it is incredibly restrictive to passengers, I assume they have some sort of English degree? And presumably they have run this by the Office of fair Trading and it's been deemed as not an unfair term? I assume they've also got it approved by the Plain English Campaign?

You could apply the same argument with "the shortest route", what if there are several of them? Is the ticket only valid on one of them then?

 

[clagmonster]

The National Routing Guide sates, in the instructions section:
"Most customers wish to make journeys by through trains or by the
shortest route. In both cases they will be travelling on a permitted route,
provided the correct fare has been paid to reflect any routeing indicated by
the fares manual."
In this case, the tickets are all routed any permitted, so assuming the trains are through trains there is no problem.
A through train is defined in the gloassary of the National Routing Guide as:
"Through Train
A through train is one which runs between the origin and
destination stations and on which passengers can make their
journey without having to change trains."
This service does run through from Romsey to Southampton, and hence passengers can make that journey without changing trains. Note the use of the word can, implying only that this needs to be possible, not complusory. As long as the journey is resumed at Eastleigh, this condition is fulfilled on both counts.
A though train is not defined in the NRCOC, either in clause 13 or Apendix A, but I think the only reasonable interpretation is the same definition as the routing guide.

The NRCOC has this to say on breaking of journeys:
"16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a
return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for
the trains you want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in
the case of a return ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket. However,
these rights may not apply to some types of tickets for which a break of journey is
prohibited, in which case the relevant Train Companies will make this clear in their
notices and other publications."
Now, SWT have made clear in a notice at Romsey station, and presumably others at which the same situation occurs (can anyone confirm this). However, the other clause is "and other publications". The only time that the SWT website mentions break of journey is in relation to advance fares, which are not relevent here. The Great Western website does not mention break of journey. The National Rail website, in the Anytime Day terms of conditions states:
"You may start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station along the route of travel." Which to me is fairly conclusive.
In the off-peak day tickets terms and conditions, it states:
"
Break of journey is allowed on Off-Peak tickets unless restricted for the journey you are making. If you intend to break your journey, please call 08457 48 49 50 to check if it is available on your specific journey.

If you break your journey and are still travelling at 0230 then you may stay on the train to complete that part of the journey, but no further break of journey is allowed and all travel must be completed by 1200."
The restriction code of the off peak day in Avantix for this route does not show any restriction on break of journey. Perhaps somebody could confirm whether that is also the case in the FRPP. Assuming that is the case, the advice given on telephoning the number given on the National Rail website would be that a break of journey is allowed. This would also be the case if you asked a booking clerk at another station, or if a guard looked up the ticket on his machine.
Of course, FGW could quite easily ban break of journey on the cheap day return by changing the restriction. However, in my opinion this would have to be published clearly in the journey planners and in the ticket desciptions on the Great Western and South West Trains websites. To alter the validity of the standard/first day tickets would require a change in the ticket terms and conditions nationwide.

 

[glynn80]

Perhaps somebody could confirm whether that is also the case in the FRPP.

Yes this is also the case in the FRPP.

 

[dan_atki]

Yes but what they were telling me is that the wording is:

(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a through train;

- That is Between Station A & B (as on the ticket) on a (that is a [i.e. one - not more than one]) through train. As soon as you get off that that train at Station C you are no longer travelling between A & B on a through train (you are either travelling from A to C or from A to B on more than one through train).

If I'm going to get all pedantic about the use of singular in this clause then my interpretation is that it is clarifying that a journey origin-destination must only require one train.

'Through trains' in plural could be construed to mean that a necessary change somewhere along the route is permitted (e.g. a through train to Eastleigh and another through train to Totton*). This is presumably why the singular term is used over the plural.

*I used Totton as there is now no direct service - I think I'm right in saying that Romsey to Totton is no longer permitted via Eastleigh (since the loss of direct service) and a change of train must occur at SOU.

 

[Drsatan]

Sorry for the lack of updates but I still haven't recieved a reply from SWT. Looks like they're not interested...

 

[yorkie]

SWT simply disregard the RG as if it did not exist.

Sadly they are able to get away with not fulfilling their part of the contract and acting illegally on the basis that we won't challenge them in court. Of course if a customer breaches the contract they will threaten them with legal action as they have a big legal team and the law is totally biased toward them.

Until some very good lawyers donate their time toward the cause of rail passengers, some of the TOCs will continue to treat passengers like absolute scum.

SWT are particularly bad. And don't forget their profits go towards the Scottish National Party and also pay him back for the free buses he operated in Darlington. Wait, the last one sounds like he is a nice guy? Well, no, he only ran the buses for free until the rivals went out of business, then he ramped up the fares! It's hardly surprising that a company of his isn't interested in following the rules!

 

[LondonLarry]

SWT simply disregard the RG as if it did not exist.

Sadly they are able to get away with not fulfilling their part of the contract and acting illegally on the basis that we won't challenge them in court. Of course if a customer breaches the contract they will threaten them with legal action as they have a big legal team and the law is totally biased toward them.

Until some very good lawyers donate their time toward the cause of rail passengers, some of the TOCs will continue to treat passengers like absolute scum.

SWT are particularly bad. And don't forget their profits go towards the Scottish National Party and also pay him back for the free buses he operated in Darlington. Wait, the last one sounds like he is a nice guy? Well, no, he only ran the buses for free until the rivals went out of business, then he ramped up the fares! It's hardly surprising that a company of his isn't interested in following the rules!

The routeing guide was around before privatisation and before SWT introduced the Romsey - Salisbury via Southampton service. The problem lies with people not enforcing the routeing guide in the first place. Unfortunately, we've all become to reliant on IT systems and don't get any proper training on the routeing guide. Now that the routeing guide is being enforced, people are kicking up a fuss. People complained when Penalty Fares were introduced as they couldn't buy their ticket on the train any more. People complain when fares increase every January....

Your comments about SWT and Stagecoach are a bit naive - how many multinational companies can you name that are completely ethical and whiter than white? If you dig deep enough, every company has skeletons in its cupboards!

 

[Greenback]

As I recall the routeing guide came in with, and because of, privatisation. I think Barry Doe called it a necessary evil!

 

[LondonLarry]

As I recall the routeing guide came in with, and because of, privatisation. I think Barry Doe called it a necessary evil!

I stand corrected! I assumed that it had always been around. I agree that it is a necessary evil, but it seems to be increasing in size each year! I wish ATOC would develop an electronic version which actually showed people the valid route for their ticket on a map and included any break of journey information....

 

[yorkie]

The RG was indeed brought in specifically for privatisation.

I totally stand by my comments against SWT and their owner. They are the only TOC that I am aware of that completely and utterly disregards the Routeing Guide.

Yes, guards from other TOCs have tried to disregard tickets that are valid, but in those cases that I am aware of, the TOCs have refunded the incorrect charge made to the customer, e.g. Northern refunded Evil_Hippo's brother who used a valid Newcastle-Carlisle ticket via Leeds and was incorrectly charged.

"Now that the routeing guide is being enforced.." Erm, no, the RG is no more "enforced" now than it was before, what do you mean? The issue is that SWT completely disregard the conditions of carriage and the Routeing Guide for their own benefit. This isn't just about the Romsey-Southampton tickets, but also about the Slough to Woking example. SWT treat their customers like scum and they really should be in court over what they have done, but sadly it's not a level playing field.

I am not saying all other TOCs are "whiter than white", but I am yet to see evidence of any TOC being anywhere near as bad as SWT when it comes to routeing issues.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I stand corrected! I assumed that it had always been around.

There used to be a national guide in the 1950s, I have seen a copy of it. It's very different to the guide we know today. But it was abolished and routes were undefined other than simply what is "reasonable". There are reports of 'bashers' in the 1970s/1980s taking full advantage by pushing the boundaries of what is "reasonable"! But allowing guards to randomly decide what is, and isn't reasonable is not right and I feel a guide is needed. York-Leeds used to be prohibited via Harrogate by local instruction, which is insane and of course now rightfully permitted.

I agree that it is a necessary evil, but it seems to be increasing in size each year!

I agree it is necessary. The implementation is poor though. Yes it is increasing in size as more Routeing Points are added.

I wish ATOC would develop an electronic version which actually showed people the valid route for their ticket on a map and included any break of journey information....

ATOC call the current version "electronic" (), there is an impelementation that is truly electronic but does not produce maps. It is called RJIS. Unfortunately it is flawed because it relies on an interpretation of the Guide and is not always in agreement with it!

BOJ isn't really part of the RG. It is valid on nearly all ticket types, except Advance (which isn't really governed by the RG in the same way as normal tickets as you have to follow a valid itinerary).

 

[glynn80]

I stand corrected! I assumed that it had always been around. I agree that it is a necessary evil, but it seems to be increasing in size each year! I wish ATOC would develop an electronic version which actually showed people the valid route for their ticket on a map and included any break of journey information....

Well the current format of the Routeing Guide was definitely brought in with privatisation in 1996, however British Rail did produce a similar document called "Passenger Tickets, Book of Routes- Information regarding Alternative Routes by which passengers may travel without additional charge":

I only know of one edition that was ever printed and that was in 1952 although I am unsure of how long the document was actually still in circulation and being utilised.

 

[LondonLarry]

Yes, guards from other TOCs have tried to disregard tickets that are valid, but in those cases that I am aware of, the TOCs have refunded the incorrect charge made to the customer, e.g. Northern refunded Evil_Hippo's brother who used a valid Newcastle-Carlisle ticket via Leeds and was incorrectly charged.

"Now that the routeing guide is being enforced.." Erm, no, the RG is no more "enforced" now than it was before, what do you mean? The issue is that SWT completely disregard the conditions of carriage and the Routeing Guide for their own benefit. This isn't just about the Romsey-Southampton tickets, but also about the Slough to Woking example. SWT treat their customers like scum and they really should be in court over what they have done, but sadly it's not a level playing field.

We'll have to agree to disagree about our opinions of SWT and Stagecoach!

The Slough to Woking example is clearly an error in the routeing guide - journey planners were showing the ticket as being valid via Bristol but not via Westbury (it might've been the other way round). The ticket is priced by FGW, so any error in the routeing guide is surely theirs and not SWTs.

 

[yorkie]

What relevance does that have? It was SWT who charged the customer when on a valid ticket, so SWT have to refund that money. FGW does not come into it.

No, the error is by ATOC, not FGW.

 

[LondonLarry]

What relevance does that have? It was SWT who charged the customer when on a valid ticket, so SWT have to refund that money. FGW does not come into it.

No, the error is by ATOC, not FGW.

The ticket wasn't valid - it was an error in the routeing guide.

If it's ATOCs fault, why would SWT have to refund the additional ticket?

 

[yorkie]

The ticket wasn't valid - it was an error in the routeing guide.

No. The ticket WAS clearly valid.

If it's ATOCs fault, why would SWT have to refund the additional ticket?

SWT charged the customer for a ticket on the basis that a customer was travelling on a route not shown as permitted in the Guide.

The route WAS shown as permitted in the guide, therefore SWT acted incorrectly and must refund the cost of the additional charge.

 

[glynn80]

The ticket wasn't valid - it was an error in the routeing guide.

If it's ATOCs fault, why would SWT have to refund the additional ticket?

I'm sorry but regardless of whether it was an error in the routeing guide or not, if the route is displayed within the guide, until removal, it remains valid.

I am unsure who is to blame in this particular scenario (for the error being in the NRG) as I haven't looked back through the NRGs of years gone by to see where the route via Exeter originated but I can certainly tell you that it is SWT who should be issuing the refund as it is their staff that were at fault for excessing the customer when his original was perfectly valid.

 

[yorkie]

Agreed.

ATOC stated it is SWT who are liable to refund the customer, not ATOC.

The customer has a contract with the TOCs, not with ATOC. It is the TOCs who occasionally charge customers incorrectly not ATOC and it is the TOCs who must refund when this occurs. Refusing to pay would be perhaps a better alternative as then they have to chase the customer (which they won't do when they realise they are wrong) rather than the other way round where the customer spends a lot of their time chasing up unethical companies owned by a boss who claims Northerners are "the beer-drinking, chip-eating, council house-dwelling, Old Labour-voting masses." [source] (!!)

Let's not forget the same happened with Newcastle-Carlisle via Leeds; Northern issued a refund. SWT should do the same, shame on them for not!

 

[LondonLarry]

Refusing to pay would be perhaps a better alternative as then they have to chase the customer (which they won't do when they realise they are wrong) rather than the other way round where the customer spends a lot of their time chasing up unethical companies owned by a boss who claims Northerners are "the beer-drinking, chip-eating, council house-dwelling, Old Labour-voting masses." [source] (!!)

Don't go on about how much you dislike Brian Souter - I picked it up from your first comment.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm sorry but regardless of whether it was an error in the routeing guide or not, if the route is displayed within the guide, until removal, it remains valid.

I am unsure who is to blame in this particular scenario (for the error being in the NRG) as I haven't looked back through the NRGs of years gone by to see where the route via Exeter originated but I can certainly tell you that it is SWT who should be issuing the refund as it is their staff that were at fault for excessing the customer when his original was perfectly valid.

OK, maybe SWT should refund the ticket....

 

[yorkie]

Yes, they should! No maybe about it!

 

[John @ home]

I agree that [the Routeing Guide] is a necessary evil, but it seems to be increasing in size each year!

Rather more frequently than each year at present! In the last 3 months alone, there have been new Routeing Guides placed on the ATOC web site on 2 July, 22 July, 7 August, 9 September and 10 September. In each case, there has been no notice or explanation given and the previous Guide is immediately unavailable.

This means that passengers holding tickets at the time of a change in the Guide have no ready means of checking the permitted route(s) for their ticket. This is determined at the time the ticket is sold and one party to the contract is then unable to alter it without the consent of the other party. There is therefore a need for former Guides to be available to the public for at least as long as the longest ticket validity - 12 months, I think. It would be good practice for former Guides to be available indefinitely.

There are two reasons for the Guide to be increasing in size. One is that ATOC keep adding additional Routeing Points and use this as a means of reducing journey opportunities. This issue is being tackled.

The other reason is that, unlike the 1952 Book, the Guide is not recursive, that is, if a journey A - B is valid via C, a journey X - Y where X - A - B - Y is permitted is not necessarily valid via C. This is best shown by an example:

Reading - Bromley South is valid via Staines, using map WX between Reading and London Waterloo.

But Birmingham - Bromley South is valid via Reading and London but not valid via Staines. The Permitted Route Identifier lists LONDON, BP+TV+LK, CS+LK and LK+TV. Staines does not appear on any of maps BP, CS, LK or TV, nor any of the maps allowing Birmingham - London travel.

By failing to be recursive, much unnecessary complexity and many extra pages are added to the Routeing Guide.

John

 

[Drsatan]

Ok, I've been reading all the posts on this thread and I've come to the following conclusions.

Unlike some people here I'm not particularly well versed on the fares system and therefore wouldn't be able to tell you whether Cheap Day Returns are not allowed at a certain time on a particular route, or the time restrictions on them. I'd agree with Yorkie: Romsey - Southampton via Eastleigh IS a permitted route and by prohibiting breaks of journey on this route SWT's ignoring the routing guide. Plus not everyone's an expert on fares. Now that the sign at Romsey informing customers that breaks of journey at Eastleigh and stations to Southampton has been removed, someone could buy a Romsey - Southampton ticket and get off at Eastleigh thinking it's OK.

In the meantime, what I'll do is buy a Romsey - St Denys ticket since that's £3.10 with a YP railcard, which is cheaper than Romsey - Southampton Airport (where I get off, I'm currently a volunteer at the Eastleigh Lakeside Railway) and because travel via Eastleigh is the shortest permitted route then that's OK...unless on the return journey I travel via Southampton Central.