Railcard Misuse

[rustyrabbit]

Couple of weeks ago (19th feb) got stopped and asked for my rail card on the way through glasgow queen st station. Knew i didn’t have one cause i had one last year and never got asked for it so thought id chance my luck and not renew. I said i got a new phone and don’t have the app (true) and then just said i don’t have it on me can i just buy a new ticket. The woman then told me no and after a short dispute i just walked away as i was late for uni. Anyway today ive received an email saying that i failed to provide a railcard and have been fined. However it says that i also continued to purchase and use a railcard ticket when i havent, I went back on the train later that night and bought a full price ticket and have continued to pay full price since after this incident. As ive “been continuing to use the railcard” they are fining me £317 but im not sure if i email back and say that i haven’t if the fine would be reduced or if its even worth the hassle and i should just pay it instead. I’m a full time uni student with a part time job so i dont really have £300 spare. Just looking for advice- email and proof of me not using the railcard below.

 

[WesternLancer]

Couple of weeks ago (19th feb) got stopped and asked for my rail card on the way through glasgow queen st station. Knew i didn’t have one cause i had one last year and never got asked for it so thought id chance my luck and not renew. I said i got a new phone and don’t have the app (true) and then just said i don’t have it on me can i just buy a new ticket. The woman then told me no and after a short dispute i just walked away as i was late for uni. Anyway today ive received an email saying that i failed to provide a railcard and have been fined. However it says that i also continued to purchase and use a railcard ticket when i havent, I went back on the train later that night and bought a full price ticket and have continued to pay full price since after this incident. As ive “been continuing to use the railcard” they are fining me £317 but im not sure if i email back and say that i haven’t if the fine would be reduced or if its even worth the hassle and i should just pay it instead. I’m a full time uni student with a part time job so i dont really have £300 spare. Just looking for advice- email and proof of me not using the railcard below.

Welcome

I wonder if the relevant para in their letter saying you have "continued to use discounted tickets" is garbled from some cut and paste mash up?

I think the key info is
- what exact date do your last valid Railcard expire? (which I assume Scotrail don't even know as you told them you had a railcard on your old phone so the person who took the details won't have been shown any proof by you that you ever had a Railcard)

- have you checked all your ticket history from that date until the date you were stopped and you stopped chancing your luck to see what total of tickets adds up to? They may well not give any credit for the amount you did pay.

Because from your own admission it sounds like you were buying railcard discounted tickets since last year - and that is what I would expect them to have checked and be asking you to pay for - could they add up to £317 ? (remember they might well charge that at the Anytime single fare - but an Easterhouse - Queen Street Off Peak Return and Anytime Return are both £4.50 so that booking screen shot is not a discounted ticket as you say.

So a way forward might be a reply with evidence that you did at one time have a Railcard - and provide proof of that - state that it expired on x date, and you had failed to renew it (do not mention that was a deliberate decision on your part) - and apologise and offer to pay fares for the period since up until you started paying correct undiscounted fares when you realised your 'error' - if that is way less than £317 then that might be worth doing.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

We haven't previously seen something like this from ScotRail, and they work under rather different law to train companies in England and Wales, but we often suggest asking the train company for a breakdown showing what fares they want paying. If you engage with the railway (and that may well be what we advise although I will wait for other people to comment) then it might make sense to ask here for a breakdown: then you will be able to check if ScotRail are charging you for the right journeys.

 

[z444z]

The question is whether Scotrail have enough evidence that the OP cannot safely ignore the correspondence. If no details were taken it’s possible that they don’t, but this would be a very high risk and very high stress approach and is probably not one many people would want to take.

I would expect a response accepting responsibility for the single incident (or making no comment on your guilt but making clear you’re willing to settle might be safer?) but denying further use, if true, would result in a smaller settlement being offered. However it’s possible they’ll insist the higher amount is due, or might decide not to settle and pursue other options though I think that’s really unlikely.

OP let us know what you want to do and we can help. If you want to cooperate then draft a response and send it here for us to review

 

[AlterEgo]

The only realistic risk here is of civil action. Private prosecutions are basically impossible in Scotland and the police won't waste their time for £300 of maybe/maybe not fare evasion.

Either pay the outstanding fares or don't reply. But I expect Scotrail may escalate this, as they are enacting a new fare recovery strategy and this letter is something we have not seen on the forum before.

 

[rustyrabbit]

The question is whether Scotrail have enough evidence that the OP cannot safely ignore the correspondence. If no details were taken it’s possible that they don’t, but this would be a very high risk and very high stress approach and is probably not one many people would want to take.

I would expect a response accepting responsibility for the single incident (or making no comment on your guilt but making clear you’re willing to settle might be safer?) but denying further use, if true, would result in a smaller settlement being offered. However it’s possible they’ll insist the higher amount is due, or might decide not to settle and pursue other options though I think that’s really unlikely.

OP let us know what you want to do and we can help. If you want to cooperate then draft a response and send it here for us to review

I was thinking of maybe replying and saying i haven’t used it since because that is true but im scared that they’d come back and hit me with a bigger fine as I used it previously- they have no proof of a railcard expired or not but if they ask me to provide a copy of it and i don’t have one i’m scared they’ll up the charges and backdate from when it expired which was about a 9 months ago now. Think my safest bet is to just pay the charge and not get involved even though £300 seems so excessive. Well and truly learned my lesson though.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Either pay the outstanding fares or don't reply. But I expect Scotrail may escalate this, as they are enacting a new fare recovery strategy and this letter is something we have not seen on the forum before.

I think that the above may be the best advice. Given that you tell us that your card

expired (...) about a 9 months ago now.

It seems to me that the start of the letter is a little scrambled, and is meant to be referring back to previous journeys. Given that another part of the letter says

we will seek to recover the outstanding fare difference between the fares paid and the applicable full single or return fare

then if you made a few long journeys then the £300 or so that they're asking for could add up quite quickly: if you bought a (discounted) advance ticket then the gap between that and the full priced single could be quite a lot.

 

[rustyrabbit]

I think that the above may be the best advice. Given that you tell us that your card
It seems to me that the start of the letter is a little scrambled, and is meant to be referring back to previous journeys. Given that another part of the letter says
then if you made a few long journeys then the £300 or so that they're asking for could add up quite quickly: if you bought a (discounted) advance ticket then the gap between that and the full priced single could be quite a lot.

Ideal that their letter isn’t even clear. I would agree with you that they might be going back previously but for all they know i could actually own a rail card and say it a week before this incident how could they then charge me backdating. Also the only journeys I have made are from garrowhill to glasgow not been any further so the price difference is 2.40 and i’m in town twice a week for uni from september and maybe a handful of times in summer (from when my railcard did expire) so even then the the difference would be no where near £300 which is why i just am not sure what to do.

 

[WesternLancer]

I was thinking of maybe replying and saying i haven’t used it since because that is true but im scared that they’d come back and hit me with a bigger fine as I used it previously- they have no proof of a railcard expired or not but if they ask me to provide a copy of it and i don’t have one i’m scared they’ll up the charges and backdate from when it expired which was about a 9 months ago now. Think my safest bet is to just pay the charge and not get involved even though £300 seems so excessive. Well and truly learned my lesson though.

Hence my post above where I suggested you list out what tickets you have bought (not here but privately) over the period, since the Railcard expired to see what that could add up to if they charged for replacement tickets - and see how that compares to the sum they are asking for.

As a general rule of thumb (and I appreciate you will realise this now) the money saved by not buying a Railcard is peanuts compared to what they might come after you for for the tickets bought that have ben discounted without actually having spent £35 on a Railcard.

By the way - this isn't a fine I don't think - its the sum they think you owe for tickets wrongly discounted when you were not entitle to do discount them by virtue of not having a valid railcard. They will see this is asking you to pay the correct fare for those occasions.

If / when you do pay them anything - keep proof of payment / get a receipt and keep that long term (6 years say)

 

[rustyrabbit]

Hence my post above where I suggested you list out what tickets you have bought (not here but privately) over the period, since the Railcard expired to see what that could add up to if they charged for replacement tickets - and see how that compares to the sum they are asking for.

As a general rule of thumb (and I appreciate you will realise this now) the money saved by not buying a Railcard is peanuts compared to what they might come after you for for the tickets bought that have ben discounted without actually having spent £35 on a Railcard.

By the way - this isn't a fine I don't think - its the sum they think you owe for tickets wrongly discounted when you were not entitle to do discount them by virtue of not having a valid railcard. They will see this is asking you to pay the correct fare for those occasions.

If / when you do pay them anything - keep proof of payment / get a receipt and keep that long term (6 years say)

Thank you for your reply. Off of all the advice above i emailed them explaining the situation (attached below) and they have discounted my payment. They’ve decided to just charge me for the full fare for each journey which seems a lot more reasonable. Only thing i’m unsure about is if i need to reply to this email with proof of a railcard or just pay the settlement and this will all be over. Thanks all for the advice appreciate it.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Thank you for your reply. Off of all the advice above i emailed them explaining the situation (attached below) and they have discounted my payment. They’ve decided to just charge me for the full fare for each journey which seems a lot more reasonable. Only thing i’m unsure about is if i need to reply to this email with proof of a railcard or just pay the settlement and this will all be over. Thanks all for the advice appreciate it.

It would be useful to see the rest of the email that Scotrail sent you, in case they say something after the table of journeys, but I would expect that if you pay what they're now asking for that will be enough to bring the matter to an end.

Also, pulling everything together, I think (post #6) you were travelling without a railcard for about 9 months - something like 40 weeks. On the basis of the table above and assuming that January and half of February were typical, you were making something like two journeys each week. The (full price) journeys that you showed us in post #1 came in at something like £4 each. So it looks as if you fare dodged on something like 40 weeks x 2 journeys = 80 journeys. If each of those had a fare of £4 that's total fares of £4 x 80 = £320 that you should have paid. So on a rough and ready basis, the railway wanting a settlement of around £300 isn't too far wrong (although I do note that the email you showed us in post #1 suggested that Scotrail wanted the difference between what you did pay and what you should have paid).

It looks to me as if you're minded to pay to bring this to an end. My personal suggestion would be to do that: then get a valid railcard and avoid the hassle of being in this trouble ever again by sticking to the rules.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you for your reply. Off of all the advice above i emailed them explaining the situation (attached below) and they have discounted my payment. They’ve decided to just charge me for the full fare for each journey which seems a lot more reasonable. Only thing i’m unsure about is if i need to reply to this email with proof of a railcard or just pay the settlement and this will all be over. Thanks all for the advice appreciate it.

Thanks - your letter / e-mail to them looks perfectly reasonable to me (tho I am not familiar with the law in Scotland on this so don'[t really know the limit if their legal powers to enforce things - but that perhaps does not matter).

I note their reply - does this not say how you should pay or if they actually want to see the railcard? (are they asking for a copy?)

I note they are waiving their admin fee - so that is something in your favour.

Also - does the list of journeys look correct to you?

Their reply includes your first name in your upload by the way - you may want to obscure that name and re-upload that doc

If you think the list is correct and the sum they want reflects that list, and you want to conclude the matter by paying then probably you could reply to them along following lines

- thank them for the details of the travel and the list
- state that you would like to resolve the matter without the need for any legal action by paying the fares due
- ask them to advise you how you can pay this in order to conclude he matter

If they want a copy of your old railcard then of course enclose it or some other proof of having it if you can do so.