Proposed new Channel Tunnel services discussion

[TheWierdOne]

Important distinction - has Eurostar taken the ORR to court, or are they appealling the ORR's decision under the ORR's own processes?

The article isn't clear but the context of the objections lodged suggests that they're appealing to the ORR, rather than suing the ORR in court.

It indeed is not clear, I shall amend. I would assume that it is a procedural appeal first.

 

[cle]

I'm lead to question whether Eurostar's concerns about reserving the capacity actually applies to aspirant operators or is just lip service given that they have a business interest in keeping the monopoly on Channel Tunnel passenger trains. Personally I don't expect this to hinder Virgin's application too much, but I can't say that I'm surprised this has happened at all to be honest.

This is exactly what it is.

They do not feel bad for the other would-bes, nor are they maximizing capacity today. It’s straight protectionism.

 

[Austriantrain]

This is exactly what it is.

They do not feel bad for the other would-bes, nor are they maximizing capacity today. It’s straight protectionism.

E* is majority-owned by SNCF. What else did you expect? Offer a terrible service, but hinder competition is their entire playbook.

 

[RT4038]

E* is majority-owned by SNCF. What else did you expect? Offer a terrible service, but hinder competition is their entire playbook.

Are there any companies, anywhere, who have a monopoly who welcome competition and don’t try and protect their position?

'Offering a terrible service' is your opinion - I don't suppose they see it in quite the same way.

 

[TheWierdOne]

E* is majority-owned by SNCF. What else did you expect? Offer a terrible service, but hinder competition is their entire playbook.

I expect they’re attempting to block at this stage rather than when Virgin applies for French track-access, as it gives more plausible deniability. If Eurostar/SNCF threw up a stink when Virgin applies for LGV access then it would be straight to Brussels on complaints of blatant protectionism and violation of EU directives mandating separation of train and track management. If this appeal fails, which it seems likely to, I would be surprised if SNCF try anything more than simply taking all the time they are entitled to in response to Virgin’s access applications.

By appealing at this stage, it’s less likely to fail the legal sniff test because it is a Belgian-based (albeit French-owned) company appealing a decision by a British regulator about access by a British company to British infrastructure.

 

[signed]

By appealing at this stage, it’s less likely to fail the legal sniff test because it is a Belgian-based (albeit French-owned) company appealing a decision by a British regulator about access by a British company to British infrastructure.

Eurostar is a British company

EDIT: was a British company

 

[RT4038]

I expect they’re attempting to block at this stage rather than when Virgin applies for French track-access, as it gives more plausible deniability. If Eurostar/SNCF threw up a stink when Virgin applies for LGV access then it would be straight to Brussels on complaints of blatant protectionism and violation of EU directives mandating separation of train and track management. If this appeal fails, which it seems likely to, I would be surprised if SNCF try anything more than simply taking all the time they are entitled to in response to Virgin’s access applications.

By appealing at this stage, it’s less likely to fail the legal sniff test because it is a Belgian-based (albeit French-owned) company appealing a decision by a British regulator about access by a British company to British infrastructure.

I don't suppose Virgin European rail will stay a British company for long - start it up and make a pile selling it on to foreign investors / company; the usual way nowadays for British companies.

 

[zwk500]

By appealing at this stage, it’s less likely to fail the legal sniff test because it is a Belgian-based (albeit French-owned) company appealing a decision by a British regulator about access by a British company to British infrastructure.

I'm not sure nationality of the company makes a blind bit of difference to any future ORR or legal appeal. Eurostar is operating trains over the infrastructure being contested. It has an undeniable interest in the allocation of the capacity of that infrastructure.

 

[TheWierdOne]

I'm not sure nationality of the company makes a blind bit of difference to any future ORR or legal appeal. Eurostar is operating trains over the infrastructure being contested. It has an undeniable interest in the allocation of the capacity of that infrastructure.

oh I’m sure it doesn’t from a hardcore legal perspective. But it would hardly help the case in court for Eurostar if they were to take action in the European legal system against Virgin on access to French infrastructure.

That would be an SNCF-owned monopoly operator, suing a competitor, to try and block access to SNCF-owned infrastructure. You wouldn’t have to be paranoid to expect to find smoke somewhere.

The more likely scenario I would expect on the European end is Virgin suing SNCF Réseau for shenanigans around track access to LGV-Nord, directly or indirectly accusing them of colluding with a theoretically independent company (Eurostar, owned by SNCF Group, which also happen to own SNCF Réseau), to block competition.

In reality SNCF would have to be pretty silly to give Virgin a serious reason to sue, as unless they could prove Virgin have a genuine issue with their applications SNCF would be opened to exposing their own protectionism in court. Virgin are nothing if not rigorous and will be applying for access to the LGV with eyes very wide open so will make sure their application is completely copper-bottomed to give SNCF no excuse to reject it.

 

[LLivery]

This is very SNCF but, Velvet and Kevin are also happening, within France. Kevin will even use LGV Nord.

How much issue have they had there, legally? I know SNCF have not been happy, but that's a usual day...

The very nice Velvet livery alone will make it more attractive than InOui...

Edit: grammar

 

[TheWierdOne]

This is very SNCF, but Velvet and Kevin, are also happening, within France. Kevin will even use LGV Nord.

How much issue have they had there, legally? I know SNCF have not been happy, but that's a usual day...

The very nice Velvet livery alone will make it more attractive than InOui...

From what I know, there have been no blatantly obvious moves by SNCF to block any open-access operators. Trenitalia have previously made noise about French track-access charges but nothing to warrant lawyers.

SNCF has quite the reputation for not liking anything to do with collaboration with other national operators, in general doing so only grudgingly. As you say they are probably not jazzed about open-access either but there is very little they can do to stop competitors short of using every available path themselves, which would be anathema to SNCF as it might end up being a good service for passengers.

 

[LLivery]

From what I know, there have been no blatantly obvious moves by SNCF to block any open-access operators. Trenitalia have previously made noise about French track-access charges but nothing to warrant lawyers.

SNCF has quite the reputation for not liking anything to do with collaboration with other national operators, in general doing so only grudgingly. As you say they are probably not jazzed about open-access either but there is very little they can do to stop competitors short of using every available path themselves, which would be anathema to SNCF as it might end up being a good service for passengers.

Interesting, thanks. It feels very unsurprising but counterproductive. Growing the market, as in Italy and Spain is in everyone's interest. Why they seem to determined on using as little paths as possible when there's clearly HSR demand is beyond me, but I don't think in Saint-Denis.

 

[HSTEd]

Interesting, thanks. It feels very unsurprising but counterproductive. Growing the market, as in Italy and Spain is in everyone's interest. Why they seem to determined on using as little paths as possible when there's clearly HSR demand is beyond me, but I don't think in Saint-Denis.

In the Eurostar context, the market has already grown to the degree the infrastructure can support it at reasonable cost.

There is no "rising tide" here - St Pancras can't be made to fit many more trains (if any).

And growing the market does not necessarily mean their profits will increase, which is the primary objective of a company operating in the fashion of a private company.

 

[Sorcerer]

Growing the market, as in Italy and Spain is in everyone's interest.

And growing the market does not necessarily mean their profits will increase

When it comes to growing the market I don't quite think it'll be as easy with cross-Channel trains as it was in Italy and Spain. Those operations are largely confined to single networks while Eurostar and subsequent competitors will have to contend with three track-access charges at a minimum. These aren't capital investments, but real-time operational expenditures, so even if I welcome Virgin's participation I don't think Eurostar are wrong to try and protect their interests either; as a private company their first duty is to deliver returns to their shareholders.

 

[TheWierdOne]

There is no "rising tide" here - St Pancras can't be made to fit many more trains (if any).

HS1 is in the process of doing exactly this. Border processing capacity is due to increase by roughly 150% through renovations over the next three years.

 

[D6130]

HS1 is in the process of doing exactly this. Border processing capacity is due to increase by roughly 150% through renovations over the next three years.

Maybe so....but they can't increase the number of tracks and platforms.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Maybe so....but they can't increase the number of tracks and platforms.

HS1 is nowhere near capacity. Eurostar is using around 50% of the allocated international paths.

 

[Krokodil]

Maybe so....but they can't increase the number of tracks and platforms.

Six platforms are surely enough for operating the maximum five international paths per hour possible. Turnaround times appear to be an hour or so. There's the slight issue that inbound trains arrive a minute before the outbound departs, resulting in platforms being unoccupied for 30 minutes between trains, but four departures per hour would still be extremely easy to accommodate without rethinking this. That's twice the service Eurostar is providing today.

 

[NCT]

For the umpteenth time, tracks and platforms are not the capacity constraint. HS1 and St Pancras are operating at roughly 50% of allocated international capacity (4 paths per hour in each direction).

 

[martin2345uk]

I'm more intrigued to see how sharing Temple Mills will work in practice. The current staff there are most employed by Eurostar. Will they be also controlling Virgin train moves? Will Virgin have their own control staff there working in duplicate with Eurostar? Will some third party company take over the depot and the staff will work for neither Eurostar nor Virgin?
Interesting times ahead for sure.

 

[NCT]

How do shared depots like Ilford and Neville Hill (is this shared?) work?

 

[Bald Rick]

For the umpteenth time, tracks and platforms are not the capacity constraint. HS1 and St Pancras are operating at roughly 50% of allocated international capacity (4 paths per hour in each direction).

Indeed. And even if every existing air passenger between the UK south of the M62 to Paris or Belgium swapped to Eurostar - and they won’t - then it would only add the equivalent of 9 trains a day each way using St Pancras in terms of capacity required. (assuming 80% occupancy).

 

[williamn]

I'm more intrigued to see how sharing Temple Mills will work in practice. The current staff there are most employed by Eurostar. Will they be also controlling Virgin train moves? Will Virgin have their own control staff there working in duplicate with Eurostar? Will some third party company take over the depot and the staff will work for neither Eurostar nor Virgin?
Interesting times ahead for sure.

Likewise with check in facilities which are currently all staffed by Eurostar.

 

[Austriantrain]

Are there any companies, anywhere, who have a monopoly who welcome competition and don’t try and protect their position?

'Offering a terrible service' is your opinion - I don't suppose they see it in quite the same way.

Plenty of examples of rail companies with (legal or de facto) monopolies offering a vastly better service. Look at Switzerland, the Benelux countries etc.

 

[Krokodil]

Plenty of examples of rail companies with (legal or de facto) monopolies offering a vastly better service. Look at Switzerland, the Benelux countries etc.

Public service operators with politicians to answer to aren't exactly the same as a private company whose only obligation is to its shareholders.

 

[RT4038]

Public service operators with politicians to answer to aren't exactly the same as a private company whose only obligation is to its shareholders.

Nor is the geography, size and population distribution remotely like Benelux or Switzerland. Not that SNCF are paragons of virtue, but 'terrible service' is a bit strong.

 

[NCT]

Public service operators with politicians to answer to aren't exactly the same as a private company whose only obligation is to its shareholders.

This private company happens to have a majority shareholder being a certain national government, who seems happy to rinse their own citizens with a stealth tax.