Proposals to split Northern into two franchises: How would you do it?

[TeaLovingDave]

Why? What's the need, there are plenty of other services from York to Darlington

There's no need per se but the thought experiment of how to reconcile the two near-unconnected halves of the network was raised, so I was tossing ideas about.

As for potential benefits in this (improbable to fantastical) scenario, I did actually cover that after the post you replied to:

It would potentially allow the creation of cheaper "Northern Only" tickets between various points in the northeast and North Yorkshire which currently are effectively served by two almost-entirely-distinct Northern rail networks despite being close together geographically, which would perhaps work out well for Northern in terms of added custom.

In short, I'm just tossing ideas about and not advocating they need to happen

 

[Kieran1990]

I’ve thought about this a few times of how to go about it and I think it should be regionally divided up, and services that cross the north between the great cities and counties should be under one operator. This would produce 4 operators
1) NorthWest- Manchester region, Liverpool region, Crewe/Cheshire region, Blackburn/copy pit locals

2)“Transpennine Connect” all of Northerns current cross Pennine services move to the TPE franchise this being Chester-Leeds
Man Vic-Leeds
Man Vic- Leeds Via Brighouse
Blackpool North-York
Lancaster-Leeds Via Bentham
Leeds- S&C
Man Pic-Sheffield
Man Apt- Cumbrian

3) Yorkshire & Humber- covering West, South, East Yorks, Nottinghamshire, Lincolnshire services

4) North Eastern, Tyne Valley & Cumbrian coast

 

[Harvey B]

If splitting the Northern franchise up means that there would have to be new liveries and interiors, ect I personally wouldn't split the northern franchise up until the DFT relets the franchise out (which is likely going to be 2025 at the earliest)

 

[Aictos]

Why split the TOC up? Just leave the damn thing alone but with better management and more investment.

 

[Meerkat]

I’ve thought about this a few times of how to go about it and I think it should be regionally divided up, and services that cross the north between the great cities and counties should be under one operator. This would produce 4 operators
1) NorthWest- Manchester region, Liverpool region, Crewe/Cheshire region, Blackburn/copy pit locals

2)“Transpennine Connect” all of Northerns current cross Pennine services move to the TPE franchise this being Chester-Leeds
Man Vic-Leeds
Man Vic- Leeds Via Brighouse
Blackpool North-York
Lancaster-Leeds Via Bentham
Leeds- S&C
Man Pic-Sheffield
Man Apt- Cumbrian

3) Yorkshire & Humber- covering West, South, East Yorks, Nottinghamshire, Lincolnshire services

4) North Eastern, Tyne Valley & Cumbrian coast

Diluting TPE with all those local services just because they are long or go over the Pennines is pointless.
TPE needs to be kept as the Intercity brand with fast(er), more luxurious trains. If you throw in loads of local services you may as well bin it off and go totally regional.

 

[devonexpress]

Maybe given the success at GWR this would be a good time to look at splitting the franchise, North West / North East with the North West staying as the current operation under the new OLR. The North East part being merged with LNER.

I do think the government could have changed the name away from Northern, the name is toxic from both the last two franchises.

 

[Paceman]

It’s a total non-starter and won’t be happening now.

 

[Meerkat]

It’s a total non-starter and won’t be happening now.

Why? If you can’t blame private operators why not split it up and dump it on the Metro mayors?
Then we will see if the Metro mayors really want to control things or run and hide behind “treasury won’t pay enough (but private operator can’t use that excuse of course!)”

 

[Bevan Price]

Why? If you can’t blame private operators why not split it up and dump it on the Metro mayors?
Then we will see if the Metro mayors really want to control things or run and hide behind “treasury won’t pay enough (but private operator can’t use that excuse of course!)”

Metro mayors will never have enough money unless Westminster reverses reductions of funding for local government..

 

[Meerkat]

Metro mayors will never have enough money unless Westminster reverses reductions of funding for local government..

But that is no different from saying that Northern hasn’t got enough money due to Westminster not funding it enough so isn’t particularly relevant.

 

[Meerkat]

If we could ignore conceptual arguments for a minute ( “we need BRII, bigger is better etc etc) what are the practical nitty gritty problems with splitting up Northern?
To keep it simpler and avoid route by route issues let’s just look at the top right...
Grant Shapps walks into your office and says...
“I want a self contained concession for the North East, and I want it NOW!!”
“But minister....” [over to you....]

 

[geoffk]

If you make an east-west split, what happens to Leeds - Chester and Leeds - Wigan? Both change crews at Victoria. Would they be "east" services all the way or would they have to be split in Manchester? Other east-west routes don't pose the same problem, Newcastle - Carlisle obviously east, Standedge route now TPE only and Hope Valley clearly west.

 

[Killingworth]

If you make an east-west split, what happens to Leeds - Chester and Leeds - Wigan? Both change crews at Victoria. Would they be "east" services all the way or would they have to be split in Manchester? Other east-west routes don't pose the same problem, Newcastle - Carlisle obviously east, Standedge route now TPE only and Hope Valley clearly west.

Those of us using Hope Valley might prefer to go east, however after New Mills the route becomes half of the Goyt Valley service into Piccadilly . Of course we could go back 30 odd years and split the service at New Mills with a change needed. Sometimes it's best to go forward and not back, but however it goes the Sunday issue has to be resolved.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Metro mayors will never have enough money unless Westminster reverses reductions of funding for local government..

That's what I'd fear - it's given to them without funding and they have to make swingeing closures to keep it afloat. Regionalisation in Germany caused a load of "nichts bestellt" - nothing ordered - closures on the sly just like the way our bus network has been torn to pieces.

Merseytravel have long been pro-rail so that area is probably pretty safe, but GMPTE/TfGM have varied over the years (they withdrew funding completely at one point, that was when the 150s got "AirXpress" stickers over the top of the GMPTE Ms by the doors) and Lancashire County Council wouldn't know a train if one ran them over.

 

[Roast Veg]

This is just a split by services as they are (Green = East, Purple = West, Blue = Both). Crew changeover could happen as it does already, like with other operators. I might have made a mistake with Ellesmere Port and the routes into Wigan, but I'm pretty confident in the rest of it!

 

[NoMorePacers]

View attachment 76845
This is just a split by services as they are (Green = East, Purple = West, Blue = Both). Crew changeover could happen as it does already, like with other operators. I might have made a mistake with Ellesmere Port and the routes into Wigan, but I'm pretty confident in the rest of it!

Only corrections I'd make are having Ellesmere Port as blue (it gets 1tpd from Leeds in the afternoon), and by making the small loop of track from the Atherton Line into Wigan North Western blue as some Leeds services run there. Other than that it's spot on.

 

[Peter Kelford]

I think we need the opposite - To streamline the network so that one TOC operates over a large area - Northern+TPE, Great Northern (Split from GTR) + Greater Anglia, GW+TfW, West Mids+Chiltern, EMR+XC, Scotrail on its own, GTR (-GN)+Southeastern. On top of that, three-way Scotrail/New Northern/Southern Area JVs could be set up to operate the through WCML and ECML services. Under European law, it is required to maintain open access.

 

[Roast Veg]

Only corrections I'd make are having Ellesmere Port as blue (it gets 1tpd from Leeds in the afternoon), and by making the small loop of track from the Atherton Line into Wigan North Western blue as some Leeds services run there. Other than that it's spot on.

Do East side drivers actually sign Ellesmere Port, or is it actually done by West side diagrams? The same query with regards to Wigan.

 

[SteveyBee131]

Do East side drivers actually sign Ellesmere Port, or is it actually done by West side diagrams? The same query with regards to Wigan.

I'm pretty sure Leeds crews work Leeds to Manchester Victoria with Victoria or Wigan crews working westwards from there. I could stand corrected though.

 

[NoMorePacers]

Doesn't the same arrangement exist for the Chester services though?

 

[Roast Veg]

Sorry, instead of looking at crew diagrams what I meant to say was: "how likely is it that a unit assigned to an East Side depot will see Ellesmere Port, or Wigan North Western"?

If the split is going to mean anything to the passenger, then it should at least match the colour of the trains...

 

[NoMorePacers]

Sorry, instead of looking at crew diagrams what I meant to say was: "how likely is it that a unit assigned to an East Side depot will see Ellesmere Port, or Wigan North Western"?

If the split is going to mean anything to the passenger, then it should at least match the colour of the trains...

158s have been to both several times (and 153s have been to the latter a fair amount) and are both all based in the East Side (Neville Hill or Heaton for some 158s).