Prioritised Gauge Enhancements Debate

[BayPaul]

I don't think there's much potential for container trains by rail to Holyhead. Holyhead is a very well developed ro-ro freight port, and ro-ro ferries work incredibly well on short sea routes carrying massive amounts of lorries. Train ferries were never very efficient as the freight can only be loaded on one deck, and the track layout takes a lot of space. The biggest train ferry ever to run out of the was Nord Pas de Calais. She only carried 600m of rail freight. Irish ferries' Ulysses carries up to 4100m of road freight over 4 decks. There are 4 large ferries on the route, and both Stena and Irish Ferries are building even bigger replacements for their smaller tonnage. The speed of loading means a lift on service really isn't competitive.

 

[Legolash2o]

Ah fair enough. I still think it's a good idea to upgrade Calder Valley line, to at least open up the opportunity for new freight opportunities. At least from my research and looking at data, W10/W12 lines do get used after upgrades so it's not a waste. Besides it's not like these plans are serious and that anyone is going to go to DfT or Network Rail to push them. It's all just fun to debate.

How about the other improvements B-D?

Below are some figures from 2017 for Immingham, Hull, Felixstowe and Southampton.

 

[edwin_m]

Even if they make several calls in Europe, Felixstowe or Thames Gateway are much less of a diversion than Liverpool or Hull, if also serving Rotterdam or Hamburg.

 

[Bald Rick]

Even if they make several calls in Europe, Felixstowe or Thames Gateway are much less of a diversion than Liverpool or Hull, if also serving Rotterdam or Hamburg.

London Gateway is a little bit of a diversion, as it happens. To get into the dredged channel, the container ships have to get to a location that is within sight of Felixstowe, before then sailing about 3 hours up the estuary. That extra 6 hours is worth it only because the port / warehousing facilities at gateway are exceptional, and it is closer to the main destination for most of the boxes.

 

[Legolash2o]

What will they do if those ports become congested due to Brexit?

 

[markymark2000]

How much work would need doing and what would be the cost of your suggestions? Improving lines for freight is of course a fantastic idea however with freight being very demand ran, the project could eventually become a waste of money if demand suddenly drops. It needs to be guaranteed to be used in my opinion to warrant improvements.

Build it and they will come works but only so far. I think what we need is more companies putting in an interest for the upgrades depending on routes which they think might be viable and if/when enough interest is given, perhaps then it is worth looking more into upgrades.

 

[Bald Rick]

What will they do if those ports become congested due to Brexit?

Firstly, it’s unlikely to happen for import boxes, at least not for a year or so, Government wouldn’t allow it. For containers, that problem will only arise if the stack is full. That simply won’t arise at Gateway - loads of capacity. If it happened at the others - and it would still take some doing - then the ships would drop anchor and wait their turn. If it carried on they’d simply go somewhere else that they fit. But that would be at very short notice.

 

[coppercapped]

Perhaps someone could develop a business case for a Calais to Holyhead sealed-train freight service, using pocket wagons so the containers physically can't be opened on route.

Over the last forty-odd years I have spent many hours sitting on the quaysides of various of the short sea crossing ports. Most intra-european traffic is not containerised - it travels by truck. Most of the traffic through Dover is made up of articulated lorries - very few containers come by roll-on, roll-off ferries. This putative train would have to be a rolling motorway carrying the complete HGV for it to have any chance of carrying any worthwhile volumes of traffic

Or it could work the other way. Politically iffy to be rushing EU-Eire traffic through whilst our own got stuck. And it could be used as leverage if the EU are awkward at the ports.

See above and Dr Hoo's post above. Even between Ireland and the continent the standard method of transport is the lorry. If this traffic is held up in the UK for any reason then, apart from any immediate legal action, shippers will hire roll-on, roll-off ferries to travel between Ireland and one or more ports on the continent direct - both ends will be in the EU. I reckon it might take a week to set up.

The fundamental misunderstanding about the effect of Brexit in this thread is that any delays/customs clearance/food safety issues will only affect HGV traffic - as that is how the bulk of manufactured goods and foodstuffs are transported within Europe, including the UK. Containers are for deep-sea shipments - pullovers from China for Primark - and by definition originate from outside the EU and are thus not directly affected by Brexit except for the tariffs which may be changed at the port of entry.

The difficulties will start when France starts checking refrigerated lorries full of Welsh lamb for food safety in, for example, the large new area that has just been built at the port of Dunkirk. A delay for each truck for a day or so for the paperwork to catch up will put up the costs of exporting the meat and so reduce the market.

 

[Meerkat]

If this traffic is held up in the UK for any reason then, apart from any immediate legal action, shippers will hire roll-on, roll-off ferries to travel between Ireland and one or more ports on the continent direct - both ends will be in the EU. I reckon it might take a week to set up.

I reckon there aren’t nearly enough suitable ferries, and it takes longer - ferries are much slower and Cornwall gets in the way - and that longer is too long for some goods.

 

[coppercapped]

I reckon there aren’t nearly enough suitable ferries, and it takes longer - ferries are much slower and Cornwall gets in the way - and that longer is too long for some goods.

Cornwall is only important if the time taken from Dublin, Waterford or Cork to the continent is longer than the drive through Wales and England plus the postulated delays at the English ports.
Suitable ports in France within easy reach of the southern Irish ports are St.Malo, Ouistreham or Le Havre and the latter two have good connections to the French motorway network. A back-of-the-envelope calculation shows it's around 400 nautical miles from Cork to Ouistreham which would take about 20 hours. It's then about a three hour drive to Calais - I reckon that is competitive with the UK landbridge and the two sea crossings to the same point. And depending on the destination one of these other ports might be more convenient.

As for ships not being available, a thirty second Google search threw up this ship broker with a 705ft long RoRo passenger ship for sale, POA!

Don't forget that this is only intended as a temporary solution until the Brexit hiccups have gone away. As a work round it has a lot going for it.

 

[Meerkat]

There was a BBC article saying it would take twice as long to ferry direct and that was too long for some goods (perishables?) and awkward for just in time supplies (not sure how unless they order in at <1 days notice).
For such a long ferry ride they would need a number of ferries to provide the same capacity as the short sea routes?

 

[HSTEd]

If there really is Brexit chaos at the Ports the number of ferries required for those operations will be reduced, because the limiting factor will not be ability of the ferries to physically move the lorries across the Channel.

 

[Meerkat]

They wouldn’t send cross channel ferries out round Cornwall would they? Gets a bit lively out there sometimes....

 

[coppercapped]

They wouldn’t send cross channel ferries out round Cornwall would they? Gets a bit lively out there sometimes....

Eh? The Dover - Dunkerque ships were built by Samsung in Korea. They got to Dover somehow and I don't think it was on the Trans-Siberian Railway...

RoRo ferries also run, or at least did, from England, around Ushant and across the Bay of Biscay to Santander. Can also be bumpy.

Going round Cornwall is not a problem.

 

[Meerkat]

Fair points but delivery trips are a bit different to a full load trip with the public.
The Brittany Ferries boats look more ship-like to me than the Dover ferries.

 

[coppercapped]

Fair points but delivery trips are a bit different to a full load trip with the public.
The Brittany Ferries boats look more ship-like to me than the Dover ferries.

Several points:

• You cannot judge a ship's seaworthiness on its appearance. They all have to meet international standards appropriate to their use.
• The Dover - Dunkerque ships were built to a standard which permitted them to travel halfway round the world. Whether they were loaded or not is irrelevant.
• The short sea ferries look as they do because the key to being economic on such short journeys is minimising the turnround time - so they have both bow and stern doors. Any hired-in ship(s) for a direct Ireland-France service may only have rear doors depending on which ships are available.
• I don't see why any short sea route ships would be transferred to the possible direct service to Ireland. They would still be needed to maintain frequencies even if the loads aren't quite as big. I proposed hiring-in a couple extra ships.
• The target market for any direct link is the transport of HGVs, not cars.
• The journey time may well be a bit longer than is now achievable using the UK landbridge, but if there are delays at the ports then all bets are off. In any event I can't see the overall journey time being more than a few hours longer.
• Ships are fitted with power outlets so refrigerated trailers (reefers) can be kept cool when the ship is at sea.
• The reason that there are few, if any, direct links between Ireland and France for HGVs is more to do with traffic volume than time. On the crossing that I do several times a year (Dover to Dunkerque) there may be half a dozen Irish HGVs on each crossing. There is a crossing every two hours so in a day there may be 70 or so HGVs bound for Ireland. Even if this is doubled to include the Calais ships that's 150 HGVs. The Dunkerque ships have a capacity of 120 HGV's so we are talking about maybe a crossing a day, or three every two days, to meet the demand if all the continent - Irish traffic transferred.