Preston To Leeds Route Excess

[premier01]

How much would the excess be to amend a Preston to Leeds Off Peak Day Return ticket via Burnley to Any Permitted-original ticket £16.30 travelling today-any help appreciated

 

[clagmonster]

To excess both legs (ie out and rtn), the excess would be the difference between the equivelent route any permitted fare and your £16.30 fare.
To excess one leg (ie out or rtn), the excess would be half the difference between the equivelent route any permitted fare and your £16.30 fare.

If there is one, you should pay the excess at the booking office before boarding the train. If not, pay the excess on the train.

 

[premier01]

To excess both legs (ie out and rtn), the excess would be the difference between the equivelent route any permitted fare and your £16.30 fare.
To excess one leg (ie out or rtn), the excess would be half the difference between the equivelent route any permitted fare and your £16.30 fare.

If there is one, you should pay the excess at the booking office before boarding the train. If not, pay the excess on the train.

Ok thanks so the price of the AP ticket is £23.90 so if excessing both the directions it would be £7.60 and if the out only it would be £3.80-what if this wasn't excessed at the station where there was a booking office as there is at Preston

is it a different calculation or a new ticket required to be purchased on the train

 

[John @ home]

what if this wasn't excessed at the station where there was a booking office as there is at Preston

is it a different calculation or a new ticket required to be purchased on the train

A new ticket is not required. The National Rail Conditions of Carriage give you the right to excess a ticket to travel by an alternative route.

B. VALIDITY OF TICKETS

13. The route you are entitled to take
(e) If you make your journey by a route other than those referred to in (a) and (b) above, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel by that route.

Note that this right is to pay a total of the lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel by that route. In the case of a Preston - Leeds Off-Peak Day Return that would be

New ticket needed
Preston - Leeds Off-Peak Return route Any Permitted £23.90
(there is no Off-Peak Day Return route Any Permitted)
minus
Preston - Leeds Off-Peak Day Return route Burnley £16.30
Difference = £7.60

So the very most the railway industry can ask you to pay is £7.60.

But we have read several times in this forum that in certain circumstances only half the difference is charged to travel by a more expensive route in one direction only. It seems that this is specified in internal railway industry documentation - in the Excess Fare Procedures section of a document called The Manual. Unfortunately this information is not made available to the public.

It would be helpful if one of the forum members within the railway industry could provide us with a quotation of how the excess fare is calculated when this wasn't excessed at the station where there was [an open] booking office.

But the National Rail Conditions of Carriage ensure that the total charged cannot in any circumstances exceed £7.60 for this journey.

 

[yorkie]

Actually the RG does cover this.

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/instructions.pdf

DUAL ROUTE AVAILABILITY
Where two or more permitted routes are available for a specific journey,
customers may wish to travel out by one route and return by another. If a
higher fare applies for the return leg of the journey the customer should be
issued with a ticket for the more direct route and an excess fare issued to
cover the difference in fare for the return routeing. This option should be
made available to customers who wish to pre-book a dual routed ticket prior
to travel.
The alternative journey MUST relate to the same routeing points for the
origin and destination stations.
This option may not apply to customers holding advance purchase tickets, or
tickets which are available by specified trains or endorsed for travel only by
the services of a particular train operator.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

but that paragraph doesn't quite clarify the situation - it specifically requires that the origin and destination of both legs of the journey are the same (the OP wanted to extend the length of the journey) and so the Excess is used to extend the ROUTE taken to get there,

Additionally, and strangely, that paragraph clearly specifies that this procedure applies to extending the route on the RETURN portion, and not the OUTWARD journey.
It states "If a higher fare applies for the return leg of the journey". If it was meant to apply to either or both legs, wouldn't it say "If a higher fare applies to one leg of the journey" or "If a higher fare applies to one or both legs of the journey on the route the customer has chosen".
Should we take this to mean that the outward may not be excessed for a longer route, or do we read that quote as if there was a "For example," before it and assume that the same procedure applies to either leg?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Where bought before travel, or on the train where there was 'no opportunity to buy' before boarding a train.....

[QUOTE='The Manual' (FRPP)]Change of Route

National Conditions of Carriage, Condition 13, permits customers to travel by a route, from the one stated on the ticket, or allowed by conditions of the National Routeing Guide, to make their journey on payment of an excess fare. The excess fare is calculated as follows:

Single tickets

The difference between the price paid and the price of the cheapest Single ticket, available for immediate travel, that allows the customer to travel on the route and Train Company of their choice.

Return tickets - Change of route in both directions

The difference between the price paid and the price of the cheapest Return ticket, available for immediate travel, that allows the customer to travel on the route and Train Company of their choice.

Return tickets - Change of route in one direction only

Half the difference between the price paid and the price of the cheapest Return ticket, available for immediate travel, that allows the customer to travel on the route and Train Company of their choice.

....[/QUOTE]

Note: An advance fare would be subject to a further £10 admin fee as it would be a change of travel plans.

Where there IS an opportunity to buy before boarding a train and it is not taken....

[QUOTE='The Manual' (FRPP)]Change of Route or travel on a day/train for which the ticket is not valid

Charge the difference between the fare paid and the cheapest single or return, available for immediate travel, for the journey being made. Railcard holders are eligible for a discount only if the original tickets were discounted.

....[/QUOTE]

 

[Paul Kelly]

In another thread, I felt it was clarified in relation to the excess fares rules in the NRCoC that the phrase lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel was used in order to make the normal rules apply about cheaper tickets (e.g. off peak) not being available to buy on the train if the ticket office at the station where the passenger boarded was open.

If this is true, then in the case where the OP in this post asks (IIUC) about what would happen if the excess isn't paid at the first opportunity at Preston when the ticket office there is open, would the excess liable not be half the difference between the £31.70 Any Permitted SOR fare and the £16.30 Route Burnley CDR, i.e. £7.70 rather than £3.80?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It varies according to the reason for the excess.

For a route, std to 1st class (sgl/rtn only) or Break of Journey (except when using the Underground to cross London) excess, where there was opportunity to buy before boarding a train, the cheapest available single/return ticket is used.

Std to 1st class (Season tickets and Travelcards), deviation of route to a new destination and out of date tickets (or no ticket) excesses require a new, full price ticket to be issued for the journey not covered by the ticket(s) held.

The only excess where the full single/return fare is used in the calculation is 'Over-Riding' (over-distance) excesses.

 

[clagmonster]

The trouble is defining 'cheapest available'. It could be argued that on the train having boarded at a staffedstation that the likes of cheap day and saver tickets are not available, therefore the cheapest available ticket is the standard open or standard day. This would then mean that when issuing an excess, if using this definition, that when doing an alternate route excess on the train, the excess would be the full difference between the price already paid and the standard open or day fare. I do not know whether any TOCs or guards use this interpretation.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I suspect there may be a bit of company policy involved if that is the case.

 

[tony_mac]

I think 'lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel' is exactly what it says - the cheapest walk up ticket that is valid on that service.

If it meant 'full fare' then I am sure that is what it would say.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

What Clag is saying, I think, is that if the company has specified that they can only sell full fare tickets onboard when there was facilities to buy you ticket before boarding, then is the full fare ticket the cheapest available?

It's certainly an interesting point, but is that really how it should be interpreted?

 

[clagmonster]

Indeed, HHF, that is exactly what I am saying. On the vast majority of companies' trains, if you board at a staffed station the only available tickets are full fare standard day and standard open tickets, thus one of these must be the cheapest available ticket. That said, the FRPP does give the easement that if a passenger has a railcard discounted ticket and the appropriate railcard, they can be excessed to the railcard discounted fare.
I suspect the reason that the FRPP is worded in this way is so that campanies where you can buy the full range of tickets on board can excess passengers to the likes of savers and cheap days.

Of course, if individual companies wish to allow discretion to be exercised and allow guards to excess people to cheaper tickets in these circumstances, than that is up to them.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

So, wanting to be absolutely clear about this . . .
calculating an Excess where there is an opportunity to buy, "The Manual" refers to "cheapest . . . available for immediate travel" which can include Off-Peak fares.
However, some TOCs can, and do, offer a restricted sub-set of all available tickets "for immediate travel" at some stations.
Therefore, an Excess for an alternate route is calculated using the "cheapest ticket offered for immediate travel from the origin station from the range of tickets that the TOC managing that station chooses to offer".

If this interpretation is correct, I presume that the same "choice" of available tickets is used in calculating Excesses for overdistance travel and upgrades to 1st Class? Again using the range of tickets available at the origin station?

 

[Greenback]

One of the problems with that is that the customer might only decide to upgrade to first, or be told they have to travel further, once actually on the train.

 

[Anvil1984]

for over-riding / over distance the rule as in the manual is

"A customer travelling beyond the destination station on the ticket should be charged a full Single or Return fare for the additional journey. If it is cheaper, an Excess fare for the difference in fare already paid and price of the full Single or Return fare for the journey from their originating station to their destination may be charged.

Railcard holders do not receive discounts."

So if excessing that one its to the SDR/SDS with zero discount so a CDS to station "a" with a YP turns into a SDS to station "b" with no discount

For change of route it states

"Change of route or travel on a day/train for which the ticket is not valid
Charge the difference between the fare paid and the cheapest Single or Return, available for immediate travel, for the journey being made. Railcard holders are eligible for a discount only if original tickets were discounted"

So according to that you could technically get a better deal as a SDR on route "a" could be excessed to a CDR on route "b", to be honest I usually just excess like for like where possible