Brighton is barely 50 miles. The WCML goes to Scotland. This is a mature discussion…
The Corby is a fairer comparison, or the Stansted.
Pooling them would be best. And get rid of this petty ticketing rubbish.
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Post GBR future of Gatwick Express
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The Corby is a fairer comparison, or the Stansted.
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GatwickDepress
Established Member
In my opinion, Gatwick Airport doesn't justify a dedicated service.
Back in the late 80s until the mid-2000s? Sure. Over the years, you had a comfortable air-conditioned train with at-seat buffet service, porters at both ends (think these ended with privatisation), check-in at Victoria (believe this was only for American Airlines for a few years), and scheduled to run every 15 minutes (remember when GatEx ran overnight!), which had tangible benefits for business travellers and tourists over a Network Southeast slammer.
But now you don't need to telephone an enquiry office or spend an age perusing timetables for alternate trains, you can just use the internet and have your tickets booked and itinerary planned in minutes. Heck, many people don't even need to get to Victoria and Thameslink is now the best option. Frequencies between Gatwick Airport and London have never been better either.
Gatwick Express is a dinosaur from a bygone era and just instigates confusion and conflicts between passengers and staff with GTR's policies. Bring back the 4VEG concept with the 387s and add in some more luggage space for a potential dedicated Brighton - Gatwick Airport - East Croydon - Clapham Junction - London Victoria semi-fast and run that as a flagship 12 car service every 20 minutes with expresses missing out stations in the peak.
The Avanti comparisons only work if Avanti ran all their Birmingham shuttles as the Birmingham Airport Express and claimed tickets marked Avanti West Coast Only weren't valid.
Back in the late 80s until the mid-2000s? Sure. Over the years, you had a comfortable air-conditioned train with at-seat buffet service, porters at both ends (think these ended with privatisation), check-in at Victoria (believe this was only for American Airlines for a few years), and scheduled to run every 15 minutes (remember when GatEx ran overnight!), which had tangible benefits for business travellers and tourists over a Network Southeast slammer.
But now you don't need to telephone an enquiry office or spend an age perusing timetables for alternate trains, you can just use the internet and have your tickets booked and itinerary planned in minutes. Heck, many people don't even need to get to Victoria and Thameslink is now the best option. Frequencies between Gatwick Airport and London have never been better either.
Gatwick Express is a dinosaur from a bygone era and just instigates confusion and conflicts between passengers and staff with GTR's policies. Bring back the 4VEG concept with the 387s and add in some more luggage space for a potential dedicated Brighton - Gatwick Airport - East Croydon - Clapham Junction - London Victoria semi-fast and run that as a flagship 12 car service every 20 minutes with expresses missing out stations in the peak.
The Avanti comparisons only work if Avanti ran all their Birmingham shuttles as the Birmingham Airport Express and claimed tickets marked Avanti West Coast Only weren't valid.
Hear hear !
Sad Sprinter
Established Member
I think the Wessex Electrics would have been great for such a service. Classy branding, comfortable seats and a buffet. Perfect.
The principal problem with them when they did run the Gatwick Express was that the doorways were too narrow and the step a bit awkward. The 460s had some features that made them suitable as dedicated units but they didn't have the capacity needed to continue once the decision was taken to run on to Brighton.
GatwickDepress
Established Member
God bless the slammers and their versatility!
Could easily rack up a 10 minutes or more delay at Gatwick Airport on a 442 with all the alighting and boarding with luggage during tourist seasons. Great trains, just not suitable for what they wound up doing.
Sad Sprinter
Established Member
I find that the current Electrostars on the GatEx are also not brilliant for high summer loadings to the airport. The 460s from memory really could soak up its passengers and their luggage.
Howardh
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When the second runway is eventually built, that will put more stress on the London - Brighton line. What can be done, if anything, to increase capacity and have speedier trains??
sussexbythesea
Member
I'm sure there are some solutions, but capacity is already close to max and most trains are at least 8 coach (Thameslink almost exclusively 12).
I'd be pushing for the Croydon Area Remodelling Scheme that was shelved post-COVID. With proper grade separation and more platforms at East Croydon, more paths for Sussex-Gatwick-London trains. ISTR it was also mooted there may be space at Gatwick for a platform 8?
Realistically, it is difficult to see where the budget for work of that nature is going to come from without it being entirely funded by the Airport, and I don't suppose it is in their budget for the runway work.
Mgameing123
Member
Yeah Gatwick Express shouldn't even be a thing. It's a waste of capacity.
Platform 8, including track / p-way is basically there at Gatwick. It was originally planned as an island, you can feel that at p7.
But without Croydon/Windmill, it's likely enough. And where they subsequently put an escalator is a bit of a problem too - lol.
The 7 platforms and lines do seem enough for the service through Gatwick today. If the North Downs plan ever went back to 3tph, it would likely still be enough. And if GatEx was absorbed and those terminators sent onwards to wherever, even more space at the station in theory. And no impact on Windmill as extensions to existing paths.
Even if due to Haywards Heath / two track section, it only got to Three Bridges/Horsham (ideally a swap with the Reigate 12 car thing!) - but maybe could be some extras to Lewes and/or Coastways at certain times too.
But without Croydon/Windmill, it's likely enough. And where they subsequently put an escalator is a bit of a problem too - lol.
The 7 platforms and lines do seem enough for the service through Gatwick today. If the North Downs plan ever went back to 3tph, it would likely still be enough. And if GatEx was absorbed and those terminators sent onwards to wherever, even more space at the station in theory. And no impact on Windmill as extensions to existing paths.
Even if due to Haywards Heath / two track section, it only got to Three Bridges/Horsham (ideally a swap with the Reigate 12 car thing!) - but maybe could be some extras to Lewes and/or Coastways at certain times too.
Consideration really needs to be made of what can be done with existing infrastructure. With the reduction in trains to the Purley branches, some sort of recast that could properly eliminate the all day use of Stoats Nest Junction, keeping all Redhill line services on the slows, ought to make it feasible to run an even pattern on the Quarry Line between Gatwick Airport and East Croydon, without gaps in the service, alternating between Victoria and London Bridge. I imagine the issue would be where that service could go south of Gatwick, and whether Windmill Bridge Junction can absorb it.
It is somewhat unfortunate that the current path for the Horsham to Peterborough service doesn't fit on the slows, in the way the southbound now does.
It is somewhat unfortunate that the current path for the Horsham to Peterborough service doesn't fit on the slows, in the way the southbound now does.
Minstral25
Established Member
Perhaps making all the slow line trains south of East Croydon from London Bridge only, might work eliminating the crossover at Selhurst/Windmill for East Grinsteads and Reigate’s. Meaning creating capacity where crossovers from fast to slow are eliminated
Perhaps Reigate’s could continue to Victoria crossing over at Purley instead of Windmill.
Perhaps Reigate’s could continue to Victoria crossing over at Purley instead of Windmill.
generalnerd
Member
Make it the south coast express. Have it split into two sections of train (fares/service wise).
The airport (for passengers ticketed to or from the airport) part would be a plush airport lounge style journey sold at a similar price as it is now, with some train style seating and some sofa areas. Maybe have tea and coffee facilities onboard.
The coastal part (for passengers ticketed from all non airport stations (e.g. London to Brighton) is a nice travelling environment with first class seating as standard, along with a service consisting of biscuits, crisps, drinks and other small items. You would then have first class which has a full onboard dining service (not too over the top but a proper meal) along with 1 by 1 armchair seating, but sell this as a premium (like tfw’s dining train but if the food was included)
Basically, make the airport half like a lounge and the coastal half like a luxury train
The airport (for passengers ticketed to or from the airport) part would be a plush airport lounge style journey sold at a similar price as it is now, with some train style seating and some sofa areas. Maybe have tea and coffee facilities onboard.
The coastal part (for passengers ticketed from all non airport stations (e.g. London to Brighton) is a nice travelling environment with first class seating as standard, along with a service consisting of biscuits, crisps, drinks and other small items. You would then have first class which has a full onboard dining service (not too over the top but a proper meal) along with 1 by 1 armchair seating, but sell this as a premium (like tfw’s dining train but if the food was included)
Basically, make the airport half like a lounge and the coastal half like a luxury train
I can't imagine the airport would want to see Gatwick Express as a brand disappear, given Heathrow, Stansted and Luton have such services under the "Express" banner. Neither really should it. As pointed out up thread, "Luton Airport Express" continues on to Corby so by that logic should it be renamed Northamptonshire Express?
Binning it altogether to make way for more trains may well be prudent in future if that's a possibility, but even then I'd still expect some services to be branded as Gatwick in one way or another. The Gatwick Express services, despite omitting East Croydon and Clapham Common calls, don't really yield that much of a journey time benefit from the airport to London Victoria anyway.
The main reason in my eyes for retaining an "airport express" subdivision is not so much that it offers a premium service, but one that is specified specifically for airport traffic, eg additional luggage space. Granted that doesn't warrent the fare differential which is the main issue at stake, but if you lose the airport subdivision altogether, you risk conflicting needs on those services in future. Having the Gatwick Express separate from other Southern services essentially safegaurds those for airport traffic as the priority customer base. Take Greater Anglia as the example where the 745/0 intercity's have first class, buffet service and table seating, whilst the 745/1 for StanEx omit those (albeit these are being fitted with tables for resilience to cover 745/0 duties when needed) and instead have additional luggage space. If Gatwick Express were to disappear altogether, how would you differentiate these kind of specifications, particularly on any future rolling stock that might replace the current configs?
Binning it altogether to make way for more trains may well be prudent in future if that's a possibility, but even then I'd still expect some services to be branded as Gatwick in one way or another. The Gatwick Express services, despite omitting East Croydon and Clapham Common calls, don't really yield that much of a journey time benefit from the airport to London Victoria anyway.
The main reason in my eyes for retaining an "airport express" subdivision is not so much that it offers a premium service, but one that is specified specifically for airport traffic, eg additional luggage space. Granted that doesn't warrent the fare differential which is the main issue at stake, but if you lose the airport subdivision altogether, you risk conflicting needs on those services in future. Having the Gatwick Express separate from other Southern services essentially safegaurds those for airport traffic as the priority customer base. Take Greater Anglia as the example where the 745/0 intercity's have first class, buffet service and table seating, whilst the 745/1 for StanEx omit those (albeit these are being fitted with tables for resilience to cover 745/0 duties when needed) and instead have additional luggage space. If Gatwick Express were to disappear altogether, how would you differentiate these kind of specifications, particularly on any future rolling stock that might replace the current configs?
Could they build an underground loop line within the airport like at Heathrow with stations for different terminals?
My memory of using Gatwick is of a very long journey out to the terminal on assorted travelators, if they created a more direct connection to terminals it would make using the airport and the train both more attractive, and justify having separate fares for an express/dedicated service. Wouldn’t be cheap, but as part of adding a new runway and associated infrastructure it wouldn’t look as shocking and be funded mostly by the airport itself. Then it could be one of the end points of the Charlie Line.
From my observations, most people don't use the express though. They all pile on the green Southern branded train two or three minutes behind (EDIT: actually six minutes behind on Mondays to Saturdays). They don't even seem that busy with Brighton passengers anymore. Perhaps because people think they will be charged more so they opt for Thameslink instead. There are few (any?) 12 car Gatwick Express trains now so that tells you what the loadings are like. Meanwhile there are a lot of heaving 12 car Southern trains in the peaks, and through the day at weekends.
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It's not just this forum. If you stand at Gatwick for an hour and people watch, you will see that the vast majority of passengers from London travel on trains other than the Gatwick Express. Clearly the hundreds of people getting off the Southern train three minutes behind the express did not just miss it at Victoria because they wouldn't all have got on in three minutes. It was most likely a conscious decision not to go on the express.
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By all means call it Gatwick Express but don't have separate fares, e.g. the fare the Harlow or Bishop's Stortford is the same whatever train you take. Also, don't bother with different coloured trains unless you can keep them on that route 99.9% of the time. The red or white class 387s turn up randomly on any of their booked routes.
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But now that so many people plan travel via smartphone they look at the options and wonder why they bother with the one that is 0 to 2 mins quicker when it costs nearly £10 more and pay the £15.30 rather than the £24.10 train, especially as if they got to Victoria at 3pm today there would be 3 £15.10 trains before the next £24.10 train. They then drag all their bags on to the £15.30 train without any extra luggage space. Cluttering up the aisles and not moving down the train (can you tell this might be a frequent annoyance of mine?! )
I don't think most people would apply the word express to a service that takes the same amount of time or only saves 2 minutes at a £10 premium!
I think we're agreeing this could be done better..!
I would revert to the 50s-70s pattern of detaching/attaching at GTW, even though it's a slower process these days. The trains would have to skip E Croydon as now, to avoid the GX unit being swamped between VIC and ECR (no realistic way of enforcing a U/S stop, and people would get wise very quickly).
However, that limits you to Brighton as a destination and therefore 2tph, and you really need a 15min interval for a London airport route. So that means running 2tph VIC-GTW only offpeak - in the peak you could extend these further afield to anywhere that has an alternative from ECR.
Question: assuming the timetable would allow it, would a U/S stop at Clapham Jn be worth it (the same swamping issue would apply but for 6min not 14)? It would reinstate CLJ-BTN which is an unfortunate current omission.
All this would require a timetable recast so couldn't happen for a year or two.
Obviously the premium fares would go.
However, that limits you to Brighton as a destination and therefore 2tph, and you really need a 15min interval for a London airport route. So that means running 2tph VIC-GTW only offpeak - in the peak you could extend these further afield to anywhere that has an alternative from ECR.
Question: assuming the timetable would allow it, would a U/S stop at Clapham Jn be worth it (the same swamping issue would apply but for 6min not 14)? It would reinstate CLJ-BTN which is an unfortunate current omission.
All this would require a timetable recast so couldn't happen for a year or two.
Obviously the premium fares would go.
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