Possible electrification of heritage railways?

[STEVIEBOY1]

Plus two or three miles of tube tunnel and at least one underground station !! OK I know 38 stock ran above ground too, but to create the genuine 38 stock experience ...!!

There is the unused or rarely used Holborn to Aldwych Branch of course, that is underground, could use old stock and prob has 4th rail.

(I Understand at one time in the evenings they did run through trains from Aldwych toward Cockfosters, there was, or still maybe, a connection and an extra through connected unused platform at Holborn, these trains were put on to take people from and to the nearby London Theatres. What a good idea if that link could be reinstated and the line extended southbound from Aldwych, under the River to Waterloo, and perhaps beyond to parts of South London that is not connected very well to the LUL Network. Amongst other things, it would provide a much needed direct underground link from Waterloo to Kings Cross St. Pancras.)

 

[E&W Lucas]

The Bluebell Railway mightre-instate 3rd rail if they ever re-open a section of the branch line from Horsted Keynes to Haywards Heath. After all the Southern is very much 3rd rail territory and I don't agree that the appeal would only be 'niche'.
If you remove the 'steam engine blinkers' and much as it might irritate, there is already interest in 'period' electrics, in fact the younger generation although intrigued and amused by steam have a more direct connection with diesel and electric, after all that's what THEY remember.
However I agree the thought of working volunteers and staff, and lineside watchers and snappers being in the vicinity of a 'live'third rail makes me shudder.

You've got to be pushing 50 to remember steam in service now, yet preserved railways' core market is as a family day out. The facts do not back up your supposition. Diesel or electric is very much "niche", and is a very difficult market to tap into. Enthusiasts tend to be class or manufacturer specific, which means it's hardly worth the effort of bothering, when you're threatening your core business by not running steam. You simply do not get the numbers (outside of galas). A coach full of bashers, vice 7 full for a steam hauled service. I'm afraid that some enthusiasts find it difficult to accept that others do not share their passion.

You've nominated the most anti - modern traction railway in the country. They wouldn't even have a diesel shunter on their metals until recently. If you're talking about the Ardingly branch, it isn't even juiced, so the cost would be phenomenal, even if more third rail were to be permitted.

The best use for the 3rd rail EMU's, is as hauled sock with the compatible diesel/ ED types. "Steam Blinkers" need to remain firmly fixed on, as preservation is all about money, there is never anything like enough of it, and steam is where the passenger numbers are.

 

[JoeGJ1984]

I disagree about diesel being 'niche' and not getting the numbers - particularly with the Llangollen railway, most weekends between April and September outside of school holidays (aside from special events) they run either a DMU or a diesel-hauled train in between the steam train runs. (They call it timetable B). (In fact, on some off-peak days near the 'fringes' of the season, they use DMUs as the only traction that day).

I went to the Llangollen railway on a timetable B day and did a full round trip each in both a DMU (the Wickhams class 109 - very nice) and a steam train - the former from the front seat behind the driver. It was lightly loaded, but it was the first service of the day, and I saw when I passed the first steam service of the day that it was busier. I think that some of the people from that service might have also done the DMU later.

Personally, I think that kids would, and do enjoy the feature of DMUs and EMUs that you can see out of the front from behind the driver (something you can't do on a steam train). And I think that whatever method of traction you have, the kids would enjoy it (after all, they just see it as a ride on an old train, like somebody above on this thread pointed out).

I'm sure I've seen one heritage railway website mentioning that they only rarely operate steam services (mostly on special days and during peak seasons) butmost of the time, they run DMUs. And there's a little railway near where I live, the Cambrian Heritage Railway (link), that runs only class 101s (I'm not sure if they've ever used steam but they have no run-round loop at the far end of the line).

And when heritage railways do days out with Thomas, they often have Daisy the railcar as well. I'm sure there would be kids enjoying the forward views from Daisy and I'd expect there would be a rush from kids to get the front seats!

 

[E&W Lucas]

I disagree about diesel being 'niche' and not getting the numbers

25+ years of working in preservation tells me something different. If there's a diesel hauled service, all Joe Public wants to know is how long until the next steam one, or they're off to the booking office to ask for their money back.

Personally, I agree that travel on a DMU with the blinds up can be pleasant, and yes they do have a place off peak or as an economical "top up", but they are no substitute for steam as the back bone of the service. I'm not concerning myself with the minor outfits that do not have regular access to steam traction, but those that operate regular daily services.

As for being "younger", I was born several years after the end of steam, and my childhood memories are of blue diesels.

 

[d5509]

. . . all Joe Public wants to know is how long until the next steam one . . .

Agreed that Joe Public and family primarily want a "steam train experience" and the heritage railways are keen on the revenue that brings in.
Concentrating on core business makes sense when there is a lot of it going round; when there isn’t, diversifying can expose you to a larger market – more punters and more supporters.

Back to the thread though, it’s down to proof of concept - demonstrable 3rd rail and/or battery propulsion in a heritage railway environment – giving facts that might convince a heritage line to adopt some degree of electric traction, provided they had the environment and support of their membership.

Incidentally, there was a similar thread to this one running last year at http://railways.national-preservati...ng-heritage-3rd-rail-emus-on-a-preserved-line and I hazily recall something similar before that.

I guess this idea will continue to get debated and hopefully the people in Coventry and East Kent will eventually come up trumps.

 

[Spagnoletti]

25+ years of working in preservation tells me something different. If there's a diesel hauled service, all Joe Public wants to know is how long until the next steam one, or they're off to the booking office to ask for their money back.

Personally, I agree that travel on a DMU with the blinds up can be pleasant, and yes they do have a place off peak or as an economical "top up", but they are no substitute for steam as the back bone of the service. I'm not concerning myself with the minor outfits that do not have regular access to steam traction, but those that operate regular daily services.

As for being "younger", I was born several years after the end of steam, and my childhood memories are of blue diesels.

It's not quite that bad The DMU services at Llangollen are generally well used. I have to agree with you though, I have spent several weekends this year crewing almost empty diesel-hauled trains and watching packed steam-hauled trains crossing us. A railway that wants a healthy turnover needs a core steam service. Diesel groups, if they play their cards right, can fit in round the edges, especially if they present a friendly face to punters and provide varied traction for special events.

 

[341o2]

agree with above. There have been regular steam hauled special trains passing through my local station (Brockenhurst) and at times its difficult to take a photograph unhindered by crowds including children who would never have seen steam in commercial service on BR. In fact, approaching 60, I can only just about remember summer holidays by ACE to Bude, or the end of steam on the SR Waterloo - Weymouth, todays generation brought up with cars, air travel, multi channel TV's and computers are still fascinated by what after all is a dinosaur of a machine, the steam locomotive.

And its always Thomas the Tank engine week. He has a supporting cast including other forms of traction which I think says it all regarding the role of diesel and electric traction in preservation I went to the Swanage railway to see the former Lymington 3CIG unit in service, but wonder if passenger numbers were significantly up due to this event

 

[ole man]

I can't see any heritage railway getting the go ahead for any electrification be it 3rd rail or 25kv.
There are to many rules, and regulations for that to happen.
Public safety would not be guaranteed, Heritage railways would have to put up pallasade fencing to protect people.
Who would switch off the power in emergency situations, who would fix any problems?.
I spent 3 weeks training to switch off the 25kv and isolate the OHLE, are heritage railways going to do this?.
This list could go on and on.

 

[341o2]

and liability insurance?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

It isn't beyond the realms of possibility. Small concerns like the Hythe Pier Railway can manage to operate.

 

[ole man]

Was the Hythe pier railway always electrified?
No matter of talk will let any heritage railway have 25 kv Overhead line, it has to many risks for any company to take on.
3rd rail might be easier to manage, but then you still have to deal with public and properly trained staff.
Who will feed the electrified lines/wires?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

It has been since 1914 but it shows a small concern can manage it. Although having a seperated track along the pier does make it easy to keep the current rail away from Joe Public.

 

[d5509]

Don't forget Volk's Electric Railway in Brighton http://www.volkselectricrailway.co.uk/ has been going since 1883.

 

[E&W Lucas]

It has been since 1914 but it shows a small concern can manage it.

There will be some "grandfather rights" at work in that scenario. That's very different to establishing a new electrified route, which would have to comply with all modern day requirements.

 

[d5509]

You would probably get authorisation for a tramway-type overhead system since new ones are still popping-up all over Europe.

To me mixing live wires or 3rd rail and steam railways seems inherently dangerous: it's not the risk factor, it's just dangerous.

How about an electric tramway feeding passengers into a heritage steam railway ?

 

[yorksrob]

To me mixing live wires or 3rd rail and steam railways seems inherently dangerous: it's not the risk factor, it's just dangerous.

Such a situation existed over many many decades on the Southern Region without undue danger.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

You would probably get authorisation for a tramway-type overhead system

http://www.mtps.co.uk/

The Birkenhead tramway is having problems at the moment due to there being a lack of a regular shed electrician - with no services apart from santa specials till further notice.

 

[zn1]

Being involved in preservation for many years i can tell you now getting string and 3rd rail installed would be expensive, wouldnt be cost effective and a massive drain on already demininshing money

the preserved railway would have to run every day and be fully loaded to even pay the electric bill !!

nice idea but at the end of day unless u have someone in the team with an open chequebook to pay the electric bills it wouldnt be worth it

steam is a draw to any preserved railway - its also extremely expensive to operate !

 

[EOR-Simon]

I do think there is perhaps potential for the Epping Ongar Railway to get their 3rd rail reinstated, considering it was a former London Underground line, so it may have some of the infrastructure still there. They have one of the Lymington Slammers which would use the 3rd rail, and they could also get hold of old tube stack.....

Please note there are NO plans to re-electrify the Epping Ongar branch and the juice rails have been removed by the previous owners. ORR guidance states that they will only allow existing 3/4 rail systems to be extended - I dread to think about mixing volunteers with 3/4 rail systems, let along rolling stock maintenance, and indeed sourcing the huge capital required, securing the copper/metals compared to the limited interest (=fares income).

Please also note that the SR 3rd rail system and LU 3+4 systems are not compatible. )

Simon, GM, EOR

 

[Gavelex]

They can easily be made to be though. Such as on various parts of the District line, the Bakerloo line north of Queens Park, the NR lines from Queens Park to Kilburn High Road, and Sarah Siddons can run on both 3rd and 4th rail.

But yes, I can't see any heritage lines being electrified in the near future...

 

[nferguso]

wiring 3rd and 4th rail is simple enough though and vice versa

Oh for heavens sake! Go on then pal - tell us how you would design a system of work that would be acceptable to the Office of Rail Regulation and, just for kicks, tell us how you would fund such an exercise.

This thread has become a ping pong match between the clueless and the clued-up.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This thread has become a ping pong match between the clueless and the clued-up.

Upon sober reflection, I realise that my last post was very provocative. It was a bit of an off-the-cuff reaction to what I do think are some extremely frustrating comments.

We do seem to have two populations in this thread: operators, who understand the true cost of providing a safe operation on a heritage railway and those who are happy to come up with suggestions that do not stand scrutiny.

High voltage electricity requires a level of design and engineering that is extremely high and I would suggest that the opportunity to reuse secondhand equipment is limited. Therefore, creating an electrified line would require a massive engineering and design effort, coupled with the procurement of a great deal of new equipment. Add to this the enormous hazards of having high voltage equipment in a hobby environment and I would like to think that anybody with common sense would understand why an electrified preserved railway is a non-starter. The only exceptions appear to be tramways and I would be genuinely interested to see whether any new electric tramways will be opened in the future.

Neil