Policy for Buying Tickets on Train

[AvidTrainGuy]

I was travelling on a CrossCountry service recently and, unusually for me, saw ticket checkers heading down the carriage. I typically don't see ticket inspectors on CrossCountry services so I was surprised but as I always hold valid tickets before boarding, it wasn't a problem for me. My ticket was scanned and the inspector moved on. However, I think others were as surprised as I was to see a ticket inspector on a CrossCountry service as I saw at least two people having long conversations with the two inspectors working their way towards the middle of the carriage. One had a reel of physical tickets but was told his tickets were not valid past a certain station (which we had already passed) and he was having a civil disagreement with the inspector, who was slightly passive aggressive by saying "So it's okay for other people to hold valid tickets, but not you?"

The other man was attempting to pay contactless for a ticket however I think there were issues with the inspector's device as the inspector had to keep coming back to him numerous times to see if payment would work. In the end, both individuals purchased tickets from the inspectors and they moved on.

However I was confused by a lot of things happening there. For one, I was under the impression that buying a ticket after boarding the train was disallowed and have read many posts on here about people being fined for such as this. Then in other posts, people claim buying a ticket on the train is perfectly fine since thanks to smartphones, it is now possible to do that.

So my two questions are:

1 - What is the policy for buying tickets after boarding the train? Is it an offence? Or is it just the case that some TOCs will let you purchase a tickets from the inspector, but not others?
2 - Was there a breach of policy by one of the inspectors with the passive aggressive comment. As I understood it, inspectors are trained not to escalate situations for their own safety?

Many thanks

 

[Gaelan]

1 - What is the policy for buying tickets after boarding the train? Is it an offence? Or is it just the case that some TOCs will let you purchase a tickets from the inspector, but not others?

Several answers here.
* legally, you are always required to hold a valid ticket before boarding, unless you’re unable to do so (eg no ticket machine)
* where a penalty fare scheme is in place (most of England and Wales), the operator may charge you a penalty fare if you board without a ticket
* elsewhere, the operator may charge you the anytime fare with no railcard discount
* in any case, staff have the discretion to charge you the normal (including off-peak or railcard prices) fare instead, or to refer you for prosecution

So quite a wide range of possible outcomes!

 

[Vexed]

One had a reel of physical tickets but was told his tickets were not valid past a certain station

Maybe some of his tickets had evening peak restrictions? The correct remedy for traveling at the wrong time on an off peak ticket is to pay an excess fare onboard, a report for prosecution or penalty fare is incorrect.

1 - What is the policy for buying tickets after boarding the train? Is it an offence? Or is it just the case that some TOCs will let you purchase a tickets from the inspector, but not others?

If the inspector thought he had made a genuine one-off mistake then paying for a excess to Anytime (or super off peak to off peak) or a new through ticket covering the section that was invalid for whatever reason (not stopping at a split point? wrong operator restriction?) could be a reasonable approach.

Buying an eTicket on your phone after boarding is always an offence. Offering to buy from a guard or RPI (Revenue Protection Inspector) when inspected after boarding is usually an offence as well*. What a guard or RPI does when finding an invalid ticket has lots of potential remedies - taking details for an Unpaid Fare Notice, Ticket Irregularity Report, or Penalty Fare, or charging an excess or new ticket.

Different TOCs will have different policies and ranges of options available for guards and RPIs, which guides the discretion they apply.

*except if there are no ticket buying facilities at the starting station that accept your chosen payment method

 

[jfollows]

Discretion also means inconsistency, you could be on the same train on consecutive days and be allowed to buy a ticket on the first day and be given a Penalty Fare for not buying a ticket before boarding on the next day.

I understand why this happens, but personally I’d be happier if the rules were implemented consistently. As someone who always buys a ticket before travelling, of course, but I don’t care about others “getting away with it”, it’s just the lack of consistency that irks me.

 

[Hadders]

Legally speaking, you are required to be in posession of a valid ticket for your journey before you board the train.

If ticketing facilities do not exist at the station where you start your journey (i.e. an open ticket office or ticket vending machine) then you may board the train and purchase a ticket at the earliest opportunity. This might be onboard, at an interchange station if there is sufficient time or at your destination. If the ticket machine does not accept your chosen payment method, or does not sell the ticket you require then you may also board and purchase at the earliest opportunity. Contrary to popular belief, there is no need to seek out the guard if you need to buy on board.

Certain stations (mainly in the north) operate a 'Promise to Pay' system at ticket machines that do not accept cash. At stations where this is in operation if you wish to pay in cash then you must obtain a Promise to Pay voucher from the ticket machine and present this when you purchase your ticket.

Note that there is no requirement to use a smartphone to purchase a ticket. Of course there is nothing wrong in using one but if you do you must ensure you have purchased the ticket and have it available for display (or collected from a ticket machine) before boarding the train.

If you are found without a valid ticket, and you have passed an opportunity to purchase a ticket then the train company will either:

• Sell you a ticket - normally at the full Anytime Single rate with no railcard discounts allowed, or
• Charge you a Penalty Fare, or
• Take your details for further investigation

 

[AvidTrainGuy]

Thanks all. So it depends on the policies of the TOC, whether ticket purchasing is available at the origin station and general discretion of the inspector. I remember being at Derby a while back and an announcement said that EMR operated a penalty fare system at that station so I would guess ticket purchasing wouldn't be happening on their trains except if purchasing was unavailable at the origin station.

Discretion also means inconsistency, you could be on the same train on consecutive days and be allowed to buy a ticket on the first day and be given a Penalty Fare for not buying a ticket before boarding on the next day.

I understand why this happens, but personally I’d be happier if the rules were implemented consistently. As someone who always buys a ticket before travelling, of course, but I don’t care about others “getting away with it”, it’s just the lack of consistency that irks me.

I can totally get behind this. I've seen a lot of "Well I got fined, but someone else didn't" posts on here. Of course it doesn't matter to us as we always hold valid tickets before boarding but it would save a lot of problems for the TOCs if they just implemented their policy consistently. I also tend to believe that a penalty fare is probably more effective than a prosecution. Prosecutions only scare people who care about their jobs and their reputation. Everyone cares about their money, and penalty fares really hit them where it hurts.

 

[Haywain]

and penalty fares really hit them where it hurts.

Really? I think many fare dodgers would happily regard a Penalty Fare as a minor hazard. If the fare for the journey is, say, £16.80 they would calculate that being charged a Penalty Fare on one trip in twenty isn’t too damaging if another ten journeys saw no fare paid.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Certain stations (mainly in the north) operate a 'Promise to Pay' system at ticket machines that do not accept cash. At stations where this is in operation if you wish to pay in cash then you must obtain a Promise to Pay voucher from the ticket machine and present this when you purchase your ticket.

Which TOCs operate such "Promise to Pay" schemes? Northern is one. (Noting that at some of their stations there aren't any TVMs). Anyone else?

 

[Hadders]

Which TOCs operate such "Promise to Pay" schemes? Northern is one. (Noting that at some of their stations there aren't any TVMs). Anyone else?

Transport for Wales.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Thanks. Are East Midlands Trains' TVMs (at their unmanned stations) card only? What's the position then? No cash payments?

 

[yorkie]

... One had a reel of physical tickets but was told his tickets were not valid past a certain station (which we had already passed) and he was having a civil disagreement with the inspector, who was slightly passive aggressive by saying "So it's okay for other people to hold valid tickets, but not you?"...

Without knowing the service this was on, and the calling pattern, and the tickets held, it's impossible to form a conclusion.

I've certainly known XC Guards claim valid tickets are invalid before, though it's not very common, it can happen.

Thanks. Are East Midlands Trains' TVMs (at their unmanned stations) card only? What's the position then? No cash payments?

If a passenger is paying by cash, and the TVM is card-only, they may buy on board.

Northern require such passengers to use the TVM to obtain a "promise to pay" coupon, but TfW have no such requirement.

 

[Haywain]

If a passenger is paying by cash, and the TVM is card-only,

And there isn't an open ticket office.

 

[Cantab26]

Maybe some of his tickets had evening peak restrictions? The correct remedy for traveling at the wrong time on an off peak ticket is to pay an excess fare onboard, a report for prosecution or penalty fare is incorrect.

It might assist if you would please cite a relevant legal authority for this proposition.

Buying an eTicket on your phone after boarding is always an offence.

This statement is incorrect as a matter of law.

Offering to buy from a guard or RPI (Revenue Protection Inspector) when inspected after boarding is usually an offence as well*.

This statement is also incorrect as a matter of law.

 

[Vexed]

Maybe some of his tickets had evening peak restrictions? The correct remedy for traveling at the wrong time on an off peak ticket is to pay an excess fare onboard, a report for prosecution or penalty fare is incorrect.

It might assist if you would please cite a relevant legal authority for this proposition.

I was just repeating what I'd seen previously on here said without rebuttal, but thinking about it again I struggle to see how the NRCoT condition 9.5 could override railway bylaws or the Regulation of Railways Act in all situations.

Buying an eTicket on your phone after boarding is always an offence.

This statement is incorrect as a matter of law.

Wouldn't it nearly always mean a Bylaw 18(1) offence has previously been committed? It was wrong of me to say "always" though, as I touched on later in my post.

Offering to buy from a guard or RPI (Revenue Protection Inspector) when inspected after boarding is usually an offence as well*.

This statement is also incorrect as a matter of law.

Surely this would be both Bylaw 18(1) and 18(2) offences with narrow exceptions? What I was getting at here was the pay when challenged crowd.

 

[Cantab26]

Wouldn't it nearly always mean a Bylaw 18(1) offence has previously been committed? It was wrong of me to say "always" though, as I touched on later in my post.

Surely this would be both Bylaw 18(1) and 18(2) offences with narrow exceptions? What I was getting at here was the pay when challenged crowd.

The issue with your original statements is that buying a ticket or offering to buy a ticket onboard is not (apart from in very limited circumstances which would not apply to your typical fare evader) in itself an offence at all, whether under Byelaw 18 or otherwise.

 

[yorkie]

Penalty fares should not be charged in these circumstances.

See:

Penalty Fares being charged for being on the wrong train on an Advance ticket

It is not disputed that traditionally, if a passenger used a "walk-up" fare at an invalid time (e.g. Super Off Peak used at an Off Peak time and so on) were not liable to a Penalty Fare, but merely the full difference between the fare paid and the appropriate fare (including any Railcard...

www.railforums.co.uk

Experienced RPIs know this:

Even if it wasn't valid you can't be penalty fared for off-peak at peak time.

Along with others who have experience working within the industry:

Annoyingly someone had tried to travel with an off peak ticket and the same inspector let them off...

That isn't something you can be penalty fared for.