Policy about blatant fare evasion?

[Tetchytyke]

What would have been the approach in decades past when, if anything, it would have been much harder than now for on-train staff to contact the BTP or others for assistance?

Way back in the olden days they'd not have got on the platform.

Back when I was a kid, they would have been firmly invited to leave the train at the next station. In some cases this wouldn't have bothered them, but in some cases it would have. I remember being on a late evening York to Bradford train in the late 90s with someone hiding in the toilet, the train was on the slow lines and so the driver made an unscheduled stop at Ulleskelf, where they were invited to either pay up or get off the train. They got off. A long walk home from there.

Likewise, on a Skipton to Bradford train around the same time someone refused to pay and so the guard simply refused to move the train until they got off at Steeton. It took a while but eventually they did. I strongly suspect that if a guard did that these days they'd be straight into a meeting and, no, there wouldn't be any biscuits.

The fact they run an honour system and don't necessarily do anything about it when stuff goes missing, doesn't change the fact it's a crime if you steal something and you might get caught.

There's actually something to be said for an honesty box system, it puts a social message out that honourable people pay up and if you try and cheat the system you are really just cheating yourself. Not everyone listens to it, but it is a surprisingly strong message. Even a lot of crims like to think of themselves as somewhat honourable, the Krays loved their mum sort of thing.

The railways go the other way, though. The rules are getting increasingly tough and the advertising is all about how you're an evil criminal if you don't pay. I actually think this is counter-productive. As much as anything, it makes fare evasion a game, you're sticking one to The Man by dodging your three quid fare and you're sticking one to The Man by laughing at a guard just trying to do their job.

Take the recent change that if you buy a ticket on your phone just before the ticket examiner comes round then it isn't valid. So you get a Penalty Fare or worse even though you have actually bought your ticket, just later than you should have done. The net effect of this is that you are actually worse off by buying your ticket- you've paid and you've got a Penalty Fare. The railways seem to think this incentivises people to buy their ticket before boarding but, actually, I think it incentivises people to just not bother buying a ticket at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It didn't happen about 25 years ago, I used to do Milton Keynes to Leighton Buzzard on the last train when I was about 15 or 16. No barriers in operation and you could pull out the bins between seats on the Class 321s and hide behind them, pulling them back in on yourself once you'd hidden.

Well, we all know the approach to revenue on the south WCML. It is not a new problem that many Bletchley guards don't really accept their revenue role, and as such I have certainly many times heard the last train from MKC to Bletchley (and similar) called "the free train" by people. It was also harder to do tickets in the days when non-gangwayed Class 321s were used instead of gangwayed 350s and 730s.

On Regional Railways North West, by contrast, guards in that era were very much on top of revenue on the likes of a 2-car Pacer or 150 as was the norm, and there is a good chance that those not paying would be assisted to leave if necessary. But equally there was a greater respect for authority, and so it would often be more of a "pay when challenged" thing (with the challenge forthcoming fairly often) or the chucking-off not requiring any physical intervention.

On Merseyrail, untli the 1990s introduction of Penalty Fares that necessitated them being there to sell at all times, the ticket office staff would usually come out and collect tickets from trains with particularly high levels of evasion e.g. school trains, and some other suburban stations (e.g. in the Manchester area too) would require you to pass the booking office to exit the station and show your ticket or pay then, sometimes even with a turnstile. Of course there was a different type of fare evasion on those, in that those who did "pay when challenged" tended to do so in exact change cash, with tickets not issued, and we can all guess where at least some of that revenue will have gone, and it wasn't into the till.

There are probably regional differences, though - in somewhere around 2010 I witnessed a fairly short, female ScotRail guard (they make them out of something else up there) chase a fare evader off the train, out of the station and down the street, though she didn't catch him by the looks of it and returned a few minutes later looking a bit out of breath. I have never seen that anywhere else but I have seen that sort of approach (albeit without the chase) in Scotland - it all seems a bit 20 years ago - the "neds" generally won't pull a knife (they're just "wee gobs") and the staff are far more ready to engage. The Scottish ned, the Northern scally and the Southern chav really are very different breeds indeed as are the effects of trying to get them to pay.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Actually no, most kids would not do this; not in my experience. Maybe your area is different.

I grew up in the badlands of Bradford, so maybe it is different there compared to York. Although, even there, my experience was that the kids from Bradford and Ilkley Grammar Schools were the worst for bunking fares. I don't think anyone actually paid between Ilkley and Burley-in-Wharfedale!

But I do think a lot of kids would do it, especially boys and especially when they get into a group.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jul 2026 ==

On Regional Railways North West, by contrast, guards in that era were very much on top of revenue on the likes of a 2-car Pacer or 150 as was the norm, and there is a good chance that those not paying would be assisted to leave if necessary. But equally there was a greater respect for authority, and so it would often be more of a "pay when challenged" thing (with the challenge forthcoming fairly often) or the chucking-off not requiring any physical intervention.

There's something to be said for paytrains. There's always been a pay when challenged thing and the important thing is to challenge people. I'd put 5p in the permit to travel machine and I'd keep my head down when the guard came along. But when asked to pay, I would.

Now the railway would consider that to be criminal behaviour and want to fine me hundreds of pounds for it. Maybe they're right but I can't help but think it makes everything so much more antagonistic and that that antagonism just makes things worse for all concerned.

 

[TUC]

The guard would have grabbed the kids by the scruff of the neck and thrown them off. Immediate consequences.

I was very pleased several months ago at Wakefield Kirkgate to see a conductor walk down to another carriage and say to a man 'You, off my train now. I'm not going to be spoken to like that simply for asking you if you have a ticket'. He got off. I felt like applauding. I'm not suggesting she would have been in a position to do much more had he refused, but it was so good to see the initiative.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's something to be said for paytrains. There's always been a pay when challenged thing and the important thing is to challenge people. I'd put 5p in the permit to travel machine and I'd keep my head down when the guard came along. But when asked to pay, I would.

While it's I guess not quite good enough hence the £10 thing, the Strathclyde agreement does seem to do quite well with ensuring the challenge is still there.