Penalty Fare - Appeal

[Unicorn52]

Hi everyone,

I'm back, sharing a properly redacted appeal decision.

I appreciate your support and recommendations to re-appeal, I'm just really not sure I have the energy, but equally I don't want that to be what gets in the way!

I'm not sure what else I would submit other than what I already did in the appeal.

Below is what I wrote to appeal the first time. I attached: Trainline receipt & screenshot of the Trainline station information.

Thank you!

Hello,

I would like to appeal against the penalty fare that I received on two grounds:

1. Conflicting & incorrect station facilities information provided on the Trainline website
2. Incorrect information given to be by a Ticket Inspector

I purchased a ticket from Waterloo (Merseyside) to Liverpool Central using Trainline. The trainline website states that "There is no ticket office at Waterloo (Merseyside), ticket machines are available to purchase or collect tickets from." and that tickets can be bought in advance online.

Upon reaching Waterloo (Merseyside) at approximately 17:50, I looked for a ticket machine to collect my ticket. I was not able to collect my ticket and confused by conflicting information. As collection of my ticket was not possible despite confusing information stating otherwise, I boarded the 17:54 train to Liverpool Central and explained the situation to the Ticket Inspector.

The Ticket Inspector explained that I would need to travel to Liverpool Central (as I had planned), go to the exit barriers and explain the situation to a member of staff who would let me collect my ticket from the machine and then use it to exit through the barrier. I followed these clear instructions.

Once I reached Liverpool Central, I did as I had been instructed but received a penalty fare.

If the information regarding Waterloo Station was correct, I would have been able to purchase a ticket or make the decision to travel from another station or using alternative transport.

If I had not received this information from the Ticket Inspector, I would have alighted at the next station after Waterloo and purchased another ticket through whatever ticket facility was available at that station.

 

[John Palmer]

This would be my suggested wording for a second stage appeal letter, but feel free to alter/adapt as you see fit (I've assumed that the first stage appeal was dated 22nd September; please alter if that's incorrect, and also insert the relevant penalty fare reference in the heading):

"Sir,

Penalty Fare Reference XXXXXX

I write to make a second stage appeal under Regulation 17 of the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 against imposition of the above penalty fare. I repeat and adopt the grounds of appeal set out in my first stage appeal dated 22nd September 2023.

For clarity, I followed instructions given by Merseyrail's ticket inspector on the train I boarded at Waterloo (Merseyside) that I must explain my situation to staff at Liverpool Central station's exit barrier, being also told that those staff would allow me to collect my ticket and then to use it to pass through that barrier. This amounted to the ticket inspector giving me permission to travel on that train without having a travel ticket, and is the circumstance envisaged by Regulation 6(2)(d) of the 2018 Regulations in which Regulation 6(1) states that a penalty fare must not be charged. For this reason, my appeal is on the ground specified in Regulation 16(3)(a) of the 2018 Regulations, namely that the penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the requirements of those regulations.

As explained in my first stage appeal, I purchased a ticket from Waterloo (Merseyside) to Liverpool Central using the Trainline website. That website states that “There is no ticket office at Waterloo (Merseyside), ticket machines are available to purchase or collect tickets from.” That information was incorrect, and I was unable to collect my pre-purchased ticket from a ticket machine at Waterloo (Merseyside) station. Furthermore, the information provided by Trainline's website incorrectly leads travellers on Merseyrail to believe that there is no ticket office at Waterloo (Merseyside) from which pre-purchased tickets can be collected, so they have no reason to look for it. The Trainline website states that Trainline acts as an official agent on behalf of rail operators (see https://www.thetrainline.com/terms#accept), and as such I was entitled to rely on the information it provides about such operators' ticket collection facilities being correct. Merseyrail is one of those operators, and acted unreasonably (and arguably in breach of contract) by charging me a penalty fare in the light of the incorrect information about relevant ticket collection facilities issued by its own agent, Trainline. This is a compelling reason why, in the particular circumstances of the case, I should not be liable to pay the penalty fare (Regulation 16(3)(d) of the 2018 Regulations) and thus constitutes a further ground of appeal.

Although the decision dated 11th October 2023 on my first stage appeal states that all the points raised to date have been taken into consideration, the points made in this appeal were also made in my first stage appeal, but have not been addressed by the appeal decision letter. I should be grateful if the second stage appeal decision would address them specifically.

Yours faithfully,

(OP's Name)"

 

[Unicorn52]

This would be my suggested wording for a second stage appeal letter, but feel free to alter/adapt as you see fit (I've assumed that the first stage appeal was dated 22nd September; please alter if that's incorrect, and also insert the relevant penalty fare reference in the heading):

"Sir,

Penalty Fare Reference XXXXXX

I write to make a second stage appeal under Regulation 17 of the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 against imposition of the above penalty fare. I repeat and adopt the grounds of appeal set out in my first stage appeal dated 22nd September 2023.

For clarity, I followed instructions given by Merseyrail's ticket inspector on the train I boarded at Waterloo (Merseyside) that I must explain my situation to staff at Liverpool Central station's exit barrier, being also told that those staff would allow me to collect my ticket and then to use it to pass through that barrier. This amounted to the ticket inspector giving me permission to travel on that train without having a travel ticket, and is the circumstance envisaged by Regulation 6(2)(d) of the 2018 Regulations in which Regulation 6(1) states that a penalty fare must not be charged. For this reason, my appeal is on the ground specified in Regulation 16(3)(a) of the 2018 Regulations, namely that the penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the requirements of those regulations.

As explained in my first stage appeal, I purchased a ticket from Waterloo (Merseyside) to Liverpool Central using the Trainline website. That website states that “There is no ticket office at Waterloo (Merseyside), ticket machines are available to purchase or collect tickets from.” That information was incorrect, and I was unable to collect my pre-purchased ticket from a ticket machine at Waterloo (Merseyside) station. Furthermore, the information provided by Trainline's website incorrectly leads travellers on Merseyrail to believe that there is no ticket office at Waterloo (Merseyside) from which pre-purchased tickets can be collected, so they have no reason to look for it. The Trainline website states that Trainline acts as an official agent on behalf of rail operators (see https://www.thetrainline.com/terms#accept), and as such I was entitled to rely on the information it provides about such operators' ticket collection facilities being correct. Merseyrail is one of those operators, and acted unreasonably (and arguably in breach of contract) by charging me a penalty fare in the light of the incorrect information about relevant ticket collection facilities issued by its own agent, Trainline. This is a compelling reason why, in the particular circumstances of the case, I should not be liable to pay the penalty fare (Regulation 16(3)(d) of the 2018 Regulations) and thus constitutes a further ground of appeal.

Although the decision dated 11th October 2023 on my first stage appeal states that all the points raised to date have been taken into consideration, the points made in this appeal were also made in my first stage appeal, but have not been addressed by the appeal decision letter. I should be grateful if the second stage appeal decision would address them specifically.

Yours faithfully,

(OP's Name)"

Thank you so much for your help and sorry for the delay! I re-appealed on 25th October with a version of this wording (the character limit meant I had to condense it!).

It was rejected and the letter is attached. Their point is that I must provide evidence that I was advised to board the train without a ticket. The member of staff who advised that I stay on the train (I was already on the train as I'd described) I needless to say don't have any evidence of this but the member of staff was wearing a camera. This footage is obviously evidence that Merseyrail will have and not me!

It's causing unnecessary stress and I'm so tempted to just pay but I have got this far I should probably continue!

Questions/thoughts I'd love help with:

• When I put the details into the Merseyrail site to pay the fare, it is still showing the reduced fare. I received the fare on 17 September, submitted first appeal on 22 September, first outcome received 11 October, submitted second appeal 25 October, second outcome received 11 November and it's now 19 November. How do they calculate the 21 days here?!
• I think they've completely ignored the misleading/confusing information re ticket collection or am I missing something?!
• Is it right that I should prove what I was told or is it worth me pushing for them to review the footage?

Thank you!

 

[MrJeeves]

When I put the details into the Merseyrail site to pay the fare, it is still showing the reduced fare. I received the fare on 17 September, submitted first appeal on 22 September, first outcome received 11 October, submitted second appeal 25 October, second outcome received 11 November and it's not 19 November. How do they calculate the 21 days here?!

The 21 days pause when you submit an appeal and resume counting down after the appeal result is sent to you.

 

[Unicorn52]

The 21 days pause when you submit an appeal and resume counting down after the appeal result is sent to you.

Thanks, I thought so so not sure I should still have the option to pay the reduced fare!

 

[MrJeeves]

Thanks, I thought so so not sure I should still have the option to pay the reduced fare!

Probably not!

 

[furlong]

Did you actually submit a 2nd appeal within the time limit?

 

[Unicorn52]

Did you actually submit a 2nd appeal within the time limit?

Yes and the second appeal outcome is attached to my earlier post

 

[reb0118]

With regards to the body worn camera used by the member of staff on board the train: I fear that you may have no luck in obtaining footage. Although the camera is constantly recording it is on a short loop (20 - 30 seconds) and footage is only stored if the operator switches the camera to record. Even then the footage will be lost after 28 days unless the operator requests that it is held.

Was there anything unusual about your interaction with the member of staff that would warrant his switching his camera on?

 

[Unicorn52]

I see! I was polite and 'normal' so no, doubt it would have been recorded!

As much as I didn't want to, I paid the fare yesterday as it's just causing a lot of stress when I really need to minimise stress. Thank you all for your kind help

 

[gray1404]

I see! I was polite and 'normal' so no, doubt it would have been recorded!

As much as I didn't want to, I paid the fare yesterday as it's just causing a lot of stress when I really need to minimise stress. Thank you all for your kind help

The fact you have now paid the penalty fare means it is the end of the matter. So you can relax now.

However despite paying it you are still entitled to appeal again to the third appeal stage. It is actually only at the third appeal that it is looked at by a truly independent body I'm not somebody linked to a railway company. Also there are certain things in mitigation that I believe only the third appeal panel will take into consideration.

I would therefore strongly encourage you to submit a third and final appeal knowing that you have nothing to lose. If you win the appeal Merseyrail will have to send you a refund which will be quite satisfying of what you paid today.

At the third appeal stage I would make the argument that you had permission to travel from an authorised member of staff. I would also state that the burden is on the railway company to prove that you were not given such permission and the second appeal panel did not take this into account correctly.

I would also use your disability as a mitigating circumstance why it may not have been possible for you to access the facilities at Waterloo station.

I really think we should put something together for a third appeal for you.

 

[furlong]

Yes - I think there might be errors of law in the response to that second appeal. What's the deadline for submitting a final appeal?

We've long ago learned that you need to actually spell out the full law for them if you need them to follow it - quote directly from the regulations and provide them with the reasoning they have to follow and set out how they must decide each matter that needs to be decided, reminding them of any situation where they may be subject to criminal sanctions if they get it wrong.

 

[gray1404]

If the OP lets us know the deadline for their third appeal we can certainly help them with it.

 

[Unicorn52]

Hi everyone, thank you for your kindness and encouragement! It has definitely been a weight lifted to have paid.

I received the decision letter on 13th November and final appeal must be within 14 days so 27th November - Monday.

I have a Disabled Railcard as I have stage 4 lung cancer. I'm grateful to be taking an oral targeted therapy (my cancer is ALK+ lung cancer if you want to look it up - it's good to raise awareness!) which does mean that despite lots of changes in my life I am able to live relatively normally, including using the station, accessing the platform etc. (albeit I wouldn't have sprinted into the station!). Long story short I don't want to use this as an 'excuse' itself and am very grateful for the railcard which makes things a simpler!

 

[RPI]

With regards to the body worn camera used by the member of staff on board the train: I fear that you may have no luck in obtaining footage. Although the camera is constantly recording it is on a short loop (20 - 30 seconds) and footage is only stored if the operator switches the camera to record. Even then the footage will be lost after 28 days unless the operator requests that it is held.

Was there anything unusual about your interaction with the member of staff that would warrant his switching his camera on?

Going off track slightly, but we are expected to have our body cameras on for every interaction that involves any form of notice/MG11.

Obviously I don't work for the TOC involved in this incident though!

 

[gray1404]

Hi everyone, thank you for your kindness and encouragement! It has definitely been a weight lifted to have paid.

I received the decision letter on 13th November and final appeal must be within 14 days so 27th November - Monday.

I have a Disabled Railcard as I have stage 4 lung cancer. I'm grateful to be taking an oral targeted therapy (my cancer is ALK+ lung cancer if you want to look it up - it's good to raise awareness!) which does mean that despite lots of changes in my life I am able to live relatively normally, including using the station, accessing the platform etc. (albeit I wouldn't have sprinted into the station!). Long story short I don't want to use this as an 'excuse' itself and am very grateful for the railcard which makes things a simpler!

Would you like us to help you with a final appeal? I am free tomorrow and Monday afternoon so can gladly help you? @Unicorn52

If you want some help how we can use what you said in your first and second appeals as a basis.

Please do not worry either. You are not using anything as an excuse. Merely stating something in mitigation if worded the right way is not using it as an excuse. It is worth remembering that the third appeal panel is the only one that is truly independent and they can consider all factors.

 

[Unicorn52]

Would you like us to help you with a final appeal? I am free tomorrow and Monday afternoon so can gladly help you? @Unicorn52

If you want some help how we can use what you said in your first and second appeals as a basis.

Please do not worry either. You are not using anything as an excuse. Merely stating something in mitigation if worded the right way is not using it as an excuse. It is worth remembering that the third appeal panel is the only one that is truly independent and they can consider all factors.

Thank you, I'll be very grateful of your help!

Unfortunately I don't think I can access what I submitted for the appeals now but I used all of the advice here, covering both the information given to me by the ticket inspector on board and the misleading/confusing information on ticket collection and facilities at Waterloo.

For the second appeal I used what John suggested in post 32 but had to consolidate to get into the character limit (I was careful to keep all the key points though).

I haven't actually mentioned my Railcard yet.

 

[gray1404]

Thank you, I'll be very grateful of your help!

Unfortunately I don't think I can access what I submitted for the appeals now but I used all of the advice here, covering both the information given to me by the ticket inspector on board and the misleading/confusing information on ticket collection and facilities at Waterloo.

For the second appeal I used what John suggested in post 32 but had to consolidate to get into the character limit (I was careful to keep all the key points though).

I haven't actually mentioned my Railcard yet.

Sorry I've only just seen this. What was the date of your second appeal decision and how did you receive it? @Unicorn52

 

[Unicorn52]

Sorry I've only just seen this. What was the date of your second appeal decision and how did you receive it? @Unicorn52

That's okay! It was 13th November by email (PDF attachment)

 

[gray1404]

That's okay! It was 13th November by email (PDF attachment)

It looks like you are out of time now sadly to make a third appeal. As these things are so time critical it basically requires fast responses on the forum.

However it is possible that they may accept a third appeal if you can offer mitigating reasons. In your case you could use your health condition perhaps as a reason why you may have required longer to prepare the third appeal and seek assistance in doing so.

If you would like to do this please let me know. If you could tag me in any reply that would be really useful so it sends an alert to me.