Penalty Fare appeal - error in ticket purchase

[Andrew_RR]

I had one weekly travelcard ticket valid from 1st Oct to 7th Oct. On the 7th I renewed this 7 day oyster travelcard ticket valid from the 7th until the 13th. I made an error during the purchase where I had intended to renew the ticket from the 8th Oct. in which case it would be valid until the 14th. I did not realise I had made this error in purchase until the inspector gave me a penalty fare on the 14th. I thought my ticket was still valid so boarded the train on the 14th.

The way I inadvertently renewed the ticket meant that I was able to travel for a day less than I had in fact paid for.

I am arguing that I had in fact paid the fare for my journey and there was no loss in revenue to the train operatior.

I was not trying to evade the fare. Have made this journey since 2006 and have always paid.

I have paid twice for the same journey - with a ticket and with the fare.

Are there any rules/regulations you can point me to to support my case? I have purchase receipts. This relates to Abellio Greater Anglia.

 

[gray1404]

I would strongly advise you to pay the PF as a matter of urgency. If you have 21 days to pay it then that will give you until Wednesday of this week. I advise you to pay it because a PF is given for an honest mistake, such as this one. My concern is that if you don't pay it then the train company will take further action for traveling without a valid ticket.

I do not believe you have valid grounds for a PF appeal. However, there would be nothing stopping to contacting Customer Relations to explain your situaiton and enclose your tickets and see if they respond with a "goodwill gesture".

 

[ian959]

I don't see that you have any other option but to pay the penalty fare and take more care when you renew your tickets.

You have NOT paid for a fare on 14th. You inadvertently paid for journeys on 7th that you did not/could not make but that does not mean you can get a free extension on the ticket for an extra day. You certainly have NOT paid twice for a journey on 14th no matter what you think...

 

[TheEdge]

Are there any rules/regulations you can point me to to support my case? I have purchase receipts. This relates to Abellio Greater Anglia.

No. Like others have said, pay the PF, chalk it up to experience as you made the mistake and move on. Based on your info here you have no grounds to appeal and refusing the pay will make everything a lot worse.

 

[najaB]

I am arguing that I had in fact paid the fare for my journey and there was no loss in revenue to the train operatior.

When you travelled on the 14th did you have a ticket that was valid for the 14th?

 

[talldave]

As others are saying, put it down to experience. Perhaps the customer services follow up letter could suggest that you could have been warned you were about to double up for the 7th Oct at the time of purchase?

 

[Camden]

The OP should browse the forums himself, see how many people have made mistakes, turned their nose up at a penalty fare/equivalent because they are indignant they believe they are in the right (in cases far more arguable), and then sorely regretted having to go to court and having higher fees and sometimes even the potential for a conviction against their name.

The argument being suggested for putting forward sounds pretty silly, and suggests to me the OP is not aware of the rules/regulations being applied in the first place.

OP: Pay the PF. It's a penalty for getting it wrong, far better than the alternative, and will hopefully make you more careful next time.

 

[IanD]

Surprised Oyster lets you have two travelcards valid for the same period ie both valid on 7th October. Maybe you should take this up with tfl? But pay the penalty fare first.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surprised Oyster lets you have two travelcards valid for the same period ie both valid on 7th October. Maybe you should take this up with tfl? But pay the penalty fare first.

Agreed, there is a small chance of it being waived on that kind of basis (but only a VERY small chance) - but you MUST always pay then appeal, as otherwise it is highly likely they will proceed to prosecution, and such a prosecution would almost certainly succeed (because the Byelaw offence is strict liability, and the fact is you did not have a valid ticket, that being the only thing that needs to be proven) and hit you with a far higher financial cost.

 

[tony6499]

Did you then buy a ticket for the 14th or renew it on the 15th ?

 

[londonbridge]

I'm assuming either the barriers were open or you boarded at an unbarriered station? As otherwise when you went to touch in on the 14th your travelcard would have been rejected.

At the end of the day, the fact is you didn't have a ticket valid for the 14th, therefore I concur with others that your best option is to pay the PF and put this down to experience.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If it's from Abellio Greater Anglia it probably isn't on Oyster, but we need the OP to confirm either way.

If it's on paper then it's your mistake for not checking what ticket you were issued before you left the machine/ticket counter. Pay up.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Pay up whatever, even if you are going to appeal. It doesn't affect the chance of an appeal, and if (not likely in this case) it is successful you will get a refund. Whereas if you don't pay, you will get prosecuted.

 

[swt_passenger]

If it's from Abellio Greater Anglia it probably isn't on Oyster, but we need the OP to confirm either way.

He states it is on Oyster in his first line.

 

[IanD]

If it's from Abellio Greater Anglia it probably isn't on Oyster, but we need the OP to confirm either way.

If it's on paper then it's your mistake for not checking what ticket you were issued before you left the machine/ticket counter. Pay up.

The OP did say he renewed it on Oyster but reading it again, it's not clear whether the original was on paper or Oyster.

 

[Andrew_RR]

I already paid the fare on the spot.

This happened while I used an oyster card.

I wrote to appeal on the grounds I stated above. That it was an error in the purchase and there is no loss of revenue to the train company - the money I paid on the 1st and 7th covered the journey I made. I was under the impression I had a valid ticket. I have traveled that route since 2006 always on weekly travel cards and have always paid. If the purpose of the fares is to protect revenue and reduce the number of fare dodgers then there is no revenue loss and I wasn't attempting to dodge a fare.

 

[Andrew_RR]

Oh one other question. I sent the appeal off today by first class recorded. Is it the date of posting that counts when deciding whether the appeal is in time?

 

[Tetchytyke]

He states it is on Oyster in his first line.

Oh yep, missed that bit.

In that case pay up but raise it with TfL too...

ETA: This highlights the importance of touching in and touching out when using Oyster. The rules are that you must touch in and touch out, even if you have a Travelcard, unless there isn't a functioning Oyster reader where you start/end your journey. If you'd touched in you would either have seen the error message and known something was wrong, or you would have been able to use PAYG credit, avoiding a Penalty Fare.

I doubt TfL will be sympathetic if you didn't touch in.

 

[Ralph Ayres]

The Oyster system fortunately doesn't prevent overlapping dates. That would be most unpopular with anyone renewing a longer period ticket just before the January Fares Revision and needing to overlap slightly to get the new ticket at the old price.

 

[Shempz]

Like most people's advice here. Pay the penalty fare as soon as possible (maybe by cheque), at the same time send in a letter to the TOC/TFL explaining what had happened - including whatever proof you have, and if you are lucky they might take a lenient view on the circumstances in this case, and return the cheque to you and cancel the PF.

 

[island]

A Penalty Fare is a way to resolve a matter where a passenger has made a mistake and does not have a valid ticket. The resolution for intentional fare evasion generally involves a court summons.

You have no defence to the Penalty Fare as your ticket was invalid, and you chose not to touch in your Oyster card at the start of your journey as required by the terms & conditions. As I see you say you paid the amount, you are safe from further action. Any refund that AGA may choose to give will be a matter of goodwill.

 

[Starmill]

I find it very difficult to understand how this mistake could have been made. You can't end up paying for the same journeys twice when renwing a paper season.

Does an Oyster card hold multiple seasons?

 

[CyrusWuff]

I find it very difficult to understand how this mistake could have been made. You can't end up paying for the same journeys twice when renwing a paper season.

Does an Oyster card hold multiple seasons?

Oyster cards have three slots for seasons, three for discounts and store details of the last three Pay As You Go top-ups. There are various reasons this can be useful: Your Travelcard expires on a Sunday but you won't be travelling at the weekend so want to renew it on Friday; you hold a Travelcard for a certain combination of zones but need to extend it to cover another zone for a week, you hold a bus pass but are going to be spending a week using trains and tubes, etc...

When renewing at a ticket office, assuming the clerk uses the "renew" function it will set the start date for the new ticket to the day after the current one expires. I'm not sure whether self-service ticket machines have the same functionality, however.

 

[MikeWh]

I find it very difficult to understand how this mistake could have been made. You can't end up paying for the same journeys twice when renwing a paper season.

Does an Oyster card hold multiple seasons?

Yes, an Oyster card can hold up to 3 season tickets. Some times people do want them to overlap to secure a better price as was mentioned upthread. You might have an annual season for zones 1-2 and want to combine that with a monthly for zones 3-4 part way through. And there's nothing to stop you buying a new season on paper without mentioning that you already have one.

 

[mikeg]

Oh one other question. I sent the appeal off today by first class recorded. Is it the date of posting that counts when deciding whether the appeal is in time?

A first class letter is usually considered served the day after it was posted, provided this was done in time for collection.

 

[gray1404]

for the PF appeal it is the date the appeal is received the counts. You sent your appeal one day before the deadline date in your case. Provied your letter arrived next day, then your appeal would be received in time.

I do not however think that you do have a valid ground for appeal. As I have stated earlier, the PF exists for honest mistakes such as this. I do believe it is highly likely your appeal will be rejected. My only advice is you contact the TOC you got the 2 season tickets from/ for TfL if it was a period travel card, to ask if they would do anything from a customer service prospective. This would be a goodwill gesture if indeed they decide to.

 

[jon0844]

No harm appealing as I'm sure not everyone knows you can have multiple seasons on Oyster, and could potentially make an honest mistake when renewing early.

To be honest, the appeal probably won't succeed though. Far better, IMO, to not appeal and then write to TfL to point out that maybe TVMs should make it clearer, or automatically start from the next day (by default at least). That's assuming that this is what happens, and the OP hadn't actually requested the wrong start date 'manually'.

There's nothing to lose by writing in, as the PF has been paid so no further (costly) action is going to be taken.

 

[snail]

I find it very difficult to understand how this mistake could have been made. You can't end up paying for the same journeys twice when renewing a paper season.

You can if it's a weekly ticket, I never show the old ticket when buying a new one. I sometimes get them from a machine the evening before the start date, in an absent minded mood I could easily forget and press 'travel today' instead of 'travel tomorrow'.

 

[jon0844]

I managed to book a flight for the wrong day today, but noticed last minute. I'd selected the right dates, but the booking engine had defaulted to the 'flexible +/- 3 days' and picked the following day for my outbound and return flight (a one day trip).

There are no doubt many ways people can make mistakes, and in many cases it's the people who do it regularly who are most likely to trip up - because you get complacent and do things on auto pilot.