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Paris Roubaix Near Miss with TGV

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Tetchytyke

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It's the same nuts 'elf and safety that stops me watching the TT from spots that I have been spectating from for decades.

I know this comment is slightly off topic, but I have friends who have been or are TT marshalls; that has nothing to do with "nuts 'elf and safety" and everything about making sure you don't get yourself killed.

I'm struggling to get too angry about the cyclists doing what they did, though. Stupid, yes, but there you go.
 
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Hophead

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they try to schedule the race (which in this case is on a Sunday) with regard to the timetables; however I believe there was a delay to the start which mucked things up. UCI rules are often clear yet not applied well.

There was a delay to the start in an effort to avoid this very scenario, but the strong tailwind had the riders arriving ahead of schedule (the average was a near record 43 km/h yesterday).
 

edwin_m

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I know this comment is slightly off topic, but I have friends who have been or are TT marshalls; that has nothing to do with "nuts 'elf and safety" and everything about making sure you don't get yourself killed.

I'm struggling to get too angry about the cyclists doing what they did, though. Stupid, yes, but there you go.

You might have felt differently had you been the driver of a train seeing them go across in front of you. This one has everything to do with making sure you don't get yourself killed.
 

kermit

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You might have felt differently had you been the driver of a train seeing them go across in front of you. This one has everything to do with making sure you don't get yourself killed.

Hear, hear.
 

ivanhoe

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The English language commentator on the version I saw / heard also deserves censure, for treating the whole thing as a joke, then making the mindbendingly stupid observation that "thankfully the train has slowed down". He should be made to watch the difference between a TGV hitting a bike at 60 mph and 30mph ie none whatsoever.

The commentary typified the moronic approach of "sport bubble" folk who somehow think their pursuits make them immune from the responsibilities of real life - see also boxing, and the collusion of some rugby coaches to bypass rules about taking a player off immediately if they lose consciousness.

Which commentary did you hear because I saw the rerun of the Paris Roubaix today on British Eurosport and they certainly did not make any light of the incident and were quite uncomplimentary of the cyclists. Bearing in mind that this was only on British Eurosport, I would be interested to hear which channel you watched because your second paragraph is way out of order.
 

Peter Mugridge

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I dont know what the max line speed would be in France on a non TGV line

Off the LGVs, on classic lines, TGVs can travel as high as 135mph ( eg Paris - Bordeaux once off the LGV ) and they've certainly had quite a bit of 125mph running with hauled stock in France.
 

Searle

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Needs to be a minimum of a 10 year ban for those that either cut across or tried to.

If the train had hit any could the bikes going under the train wheels derail the train at all? If that was a possibility then it should be a life ban for the riders involved.

10 years ban???? :lol: please get real
 

kermit

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The English language commentator on the version I saw / heard also deserves censure, for treating the whole thing as a joke, then making the mindbendingly stupid observation that "thankfully the train has slowed down". He should be made to watch the difference between a TGV hitting a bike at 60 mph and 30mph ie none whatsoever.

The commentary typified the moronic approach of "sport bubble" folk who somehow think their pursuits make them immune from the responsibilities of real life - see also boxing, and the collusion of some rugby coaches to bypass rules about taking a player off immediately if they lose consciousness.

Which commentary did you hear because I saw the rerun of the Paris Roubaix today on British Eurosport and they certainly did not make any light of the incident and were quite uncomplimentary of the cyclists. Bearing in mind that this was only on British Eurosport, I would be interested to hear which channel you watched because your second paragraph is way out of order.

It was a link to a clip from a web news story just after it had happened. But the second paragraph stands, irrespective of the source of the commentary, and applies equally, by the way, to those who seem to think that ownership of a camera and an interest in the pastime of observing railway operations gives them a divine right to ignore all manner of provisions for the safe operation of a railway. Same bubble, same mentality, same inability to perceive the perspective of the wider world.
 
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racyrich

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If you thought that one was bad, this one will give you a heart attack!

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...during-under-23-tour-of-flanders-video-166563

Nigel Wynn said:
Group of riders ignores closed level crossing just seconds before a train passes through during Ronde van Vlaanderen Beloften

A small group of riders can be seen rounding a bend and going across the railway tracks in footage that appears to have been shot by a spectator. As a warning bell at the crossing clearly rings and the barriers come down, several riders duck underneath them and others ride through the gap.

British rider Christopher Latham is the last to come through the gap, just seconds before a fast-moving train passes by sounding its horn....
 
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Tetchytyke

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You might have felt differently had you been the driver of a train seeing them go across in front of you. This one has everything to do with making sure you don't get yourself killed.

All this talk of "ban them for life/ten years" is ridiculous.

As DownSouth pointed out, most of the riders going across were sensible in doing so. The peloton does not stop quickly, and when it does it is messy- going through is better than having a pile up across a level crossing. The only one who was naughty was the red cyclist who sneaked behind the gendarme, but to try and call it a near miss is daft.
 

edwin_m

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All this talk of "ban them for life/ten years" is ridiculous.

As DownSouth pointed out, most of the riders going across were sensible in doing so. The peloton does not stop quickly, and when it does it is messy- going through is better than having a pile up across a level crossing. The only one who was naughty was the red cyclist who sneaked behind the gendarme, but to try and call it a near miss is daft.

They may have had, or thought they had, enough visibility of the railway to judge whether the train was closely approaching from far enough back to stop safely if it was. In which case, by definition, their speed and position would have been such that they could stop safely anyway.

If, as is likely, they didn't have the time and distance to make this call then they were quite frankly reckless with their own safety and the wellbeing of the train driver and spectators. A pile-up of cyclists on the approach to the barriers is a matter of twisted metal, minor injuries, perhaps a broken limb in the very worst case. Cyclists being hit by a train is a matter of ketchup.

Incidentally the mention of a ban didn't come from me. I'm for disqualification and potential criminal sanction according to the law of the land.
 
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Tetchytyke

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Unless they fly over the barrier and land trackside...

Bunch stops are not pretty sights in road racing, and can be very dangerous.
 

Darandio

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Unless they fly over the barrier and land trackside...

Bunch stops are not pretty sights in road racing, and can be very dangerous.

More dangerous than being mashed by a TGV?

The fact of the matter is that if this was a group of youths in Britain riding around the barriers in the same timeframe, people would be jumping all over themselves on this forum to claim how stupid they were. Because it was a bunch of 'professional' cyclists, all is fine and dandy.
 
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SpacePhoenix

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If it had been a car the driver would probably have been nicked for dangerous driving. No matter if it's a pedestrian bike, motorbike, car, whatever they shouldn't be starting to cross once the crossing sequence has started.

Wasn't there a news story within the last couple of years about a cyclist getting struck by a TGV and the body only being discovered at the end of the line?
 

jopsuk

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can we stop obsessing about it being a TGV? Being hit by any train is serious, butaccording to this map the maximum line speed between Valenciennes and Somain is 100-120km/h. It's a fairly slow line. That's why it has half barrier level crossings.
 

DownSouth

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All this talk of "ban them for life/ten years" is ridiculous.

As DownSouth pointed out, most of the riders going across were sensible in doing so. The peloton does not stop quickly, and when it does it is messy- going through is better than having a pile up across a level crossing. The only one who was naughty was the red cyclist who sneaked behind the gendarme, but to try and call it a near miss is daft.
I agree that it was nowhere near being a near miss. A real near miss was the lunatic rider Christopher Latham from the GB National Team in the U23 edition of the Ronde van Vlaanderen who went through only three seconds before the train.

I disagree with you on the BMC Racing Team (red/black kit) rider who went behind the marshal - it looked to me like he was hit from behind and did well just to avoid crashing down onto the crossing.

The two riders in the dark kit who were the last to go before from the BMC rider looked like they did it more deliberately. Unfortunately with those two, even identifying the team can't be done positively from the TV coverage alone as there are a large number of WorldTeams which have predominantly black kit.

Sir Bradley Wiggins has been identified as the last rider who was able to duck under the left hand side barrier before others had to weave around it.


It is good to see that the UCI is launching an immediate review of course safety after a string of high profile incidents in the last three weeks - in addition to the train incidents there was also a crash involving bollards not removed from the course at the Vuelta al Pais Vasco and two crashes involving the Shimano neutral service cars at the Ronde van Vlaanderen. They need to pull some of the race promoters into line.
 

jopsuk

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The course of the race crosses this line multiple times in a fairly short distance- to remove the crossings would mean removing some of the most iconic secteurs such as Trouee d'Arrenberg. Hopefully a sensible resolution can be found, but I doubt the UCI are going to disqualify a single rider. There are cycling blogs pointing out that the footage is available in high enough definition to read the numbers on the back of riders- if they really wanted to, they could identify every single culprit.
 

DownSouth

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What would you people suggest would happen to the rider that appears to be pushed through by another rider? (the last rider on the the right hand side that goes through appears to be nudged through by two other riders and then clearly puts his foot down to get through safely?)
Ask him if he knows who it was that pushed him.
 

Jonny

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Apparently the peloton was moving quite quickly at the time,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/32284180
...
The barriers went down while the peleton was approaching at about 37mph.
...

I'm not sure about how the speed was translated into mph, but that is pretty fast by bicycle standards and I would dare to say that pedal bikes often won't stop as quickly as motor vehicles, especially when there is a risk of going "over the handlebars".
 

DownSouth

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Apparently the peloton was moving quite quickly at the time,
Yes, as a result of having just passed through the first major selection of the race in the Trouee d'Arenberg sector. It was a quite loosely grouped peleton which was just about ready to properly split, with the teams of the top contenders pushing very hard to try and ride away from those riders who had problems in the forest.

If the crossing hadn't closed on the peleton to break up the group (or if the commissaires had not neutralised the front half until those delayed could rejoin after the train passed) then I think Wiggins would have been done for the day at that point. Thanks to the neutralisation, he got a free pass to rejoin without having to burn a lot of energy he would have needed for the final parts of the race.
I'm not sure about how the speed was translated into mph, but that is pretty fast by bicycle standards...
Speeds of over 60km/h (where the BBC got 37mph from) is quite normal for a peleton on flat roads with a couple of teams using lots of firepower to try and chase down a break, split a peleton or lead out a sprint.

If you're in a group where someone else has their nose in the wind, it's actually quite easy for the slipstream to suck you along at 40+ km/h almost without turning a pedal. Add in a bit of a tailwind and you can literally be coasting at 50+ km/h despite being on the flat.
... and I would dare to say that pedal bikes often won't stop as quickly as motor vehicles, especially when there is a risk of going "over the handlebars".
Yes, bikes have a longer stopping distance than cars, but it's all to do with the small contact patch hitting the road rather than the risk of going over the handlebars. The 'over the handlebars' issue is easily prevented by simply having a bike that fits right, sitting in the right position and having good bike handling skills.

It wouldn't be as good as a panic stop in a car, but if you asked a pro cyclist such as Peter Sagan or Zdenek Stybar to show you their hardest stop on a flat road (i.e. not cobbles) I think you'd be quite surprised at how good it could be. The hardest possible stop you can do on a road bike is with the front brake only, applied just hard enough that almost all the weight is transferred to the front wheel and the rear is just lifting off the ground.

To find this perfect level of control to lift the rear wheel requires lots of skill, experience and massive brass ones between the legs. The skill part will be getting a touch easier in the near future as hydraulic-actuated disc brakes become legal for racing later this year. Hydraulic actuation allows for better control (some riders prefer it for even their conventional rim brakes - Mark Cavendish is one) and using discs removes the problem of wheel rims heating up and melting the glue used to hold on the tubular tyres.




But back to the Paris-Roubaix level crossing incident - the problem was not the braking distances or the quality of the road, but the problem of stopping a peleton at very short notice. These riders aren't just a group of mates out for a casual ride, they are elite athletes racing at the very highest level on roads that they understand have been closed specifically to facilitate the event so they can take liberties they couldn't on a normal day when the roads are open. It's no different to what a F1 driver expects when they roll out of the pits and join the track.

A solution needs to be found that would allow the riders to approach the crossing with confidence - either holding the train for a few minutes at its previous stop or an orderly stopping/neutralisation of the race before getting to the crossing (and the restoration of time gaps) would work, just so long as there's some joined-up thinking between the race organisers, governments and rail operator/s. It's not hard - we manage to do it for the Tour Down Under in Adelaide every year despite our race being some 96 editions younger than Paris-Roubaix.
 
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