Opportunities for SWR beyond Exeter St David's

[150249]

Is there any space for or any point of a SWR expansion past Exeter? I was thinking that a service down to Plymouth like they used to have would be ideal for them and the county of Devon as a whole. It would also relieve some pressure from GWR with their ageing stock. What is everyone's thoughts?

 

[JonathanH]

I was thinking that a service down to Plymouth like they used to have would be ideal for them

In theory there can be three trains already each hour between Exeter and Plymouth (eg from London, Cardiff and CrossCountry) and trains to Paignton to fit in.

Years ago, it was often necessary the change at Newton Abbot for Paignton on days when there were lots of mainline trains.

There is a limit to how many trains can sensibly be fitted in between Exeter and Plymouth, especially between Exeter and Newton Abbot if there is ever a desire to increase the frequency of the stopping service. Running occasional SWR trains doesn't really fit with an efficient railway.

SWR terminating at Exeter also keeps things simple with the single line issues on the line to Waterloo.

It would also relieve some pressure from GWR with their ageing stock.

SWR also have "ageing stock" for the Waterloo to Exeter route.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is there any space for or any point of a SWR expansion past Exeter? I was thinking that a service down to Plymouth like they used to have would be ideal for them and the county of Devon as a whole. It would also relieve some pressure from GWR with their ageing stock. What is everyone's thoughts?

No. At the time when SWT withdrew west of Exeter, FGW were tasked to fill all the resulting gaps with their own services. AIUI that is basically why there is now room for all the current GWR services west of Exeter, eg their Paignton metro services.

The then ‘spare’ SWT rolling stock, (ie back in 2008 or so), was then used to allow for the SWT hourly Exeter service pattern. In principle SWT have no spare stock to extend their services further west, and as already said it’s really little better than what GWR already have.

 

[bramling]

Is there any space for or any point of a SWR expansion past Exeter? I was thinking that a service down to Plymouth like they used to have would be ideal for them and the county of Devon as a whole. It would also relieve some pressure from GWR with their ageing stock. What is everyone's thoughts?

It’s one of those things which is a “nice to have”, but in my view when one looks at what is required to deliver it things don’t really stack up.

How would the services be fitted in amongst a clock face GWR service? Especially bearing in mind the Salisbury route is vulnerable to disruption due to the single line sections.

Also where is the stock going to come from?

 

[150249]

In theory there can be three trains already each hour between Exeter and Plymouth (eg from London, Cardiff and CrossCountry) and trains to Paignton to fit in.

Years ago, it was often necessary the change at Newton Abbot for Paignton on days when there were lots of mainline trains.

There is a limit to how many trains can sensibly be fitted in between Exeter and Plymouth, especially between Exeter and Newton Abbot if there is ever a desire to increase the frequency of the stopping service. Running occasional SWR trains doesn't really fit with an efficient railway.

SWR terminating at Exeter also keeps things simple with the single line issues on the line to Waterloo.


SWR also have "ageing stock" for the Waterloo to Exeter route.

I was thinking that the new 701s could be used but I forgot that they weren't bi-mode.

No. At the time when SWT withdrew west of Exeter, FGW were tasked to fill all the resulting gaps with their own services. AIUI that is basically why there is now room for all the current GWR services west of Exeter, eg their Paignton metro services.

The then ‘spare’ SWT rolling stock, (ie back in 2008 or so), was then used to allow for the SWT hourly Exeter service pattern. In principle SWT have no spare stock to extend their services further west, and as already said it’s really little better than what GWR already have.

Fair enough. I see what you mean and why no one has come up with the idea so far

 

[WizCastro197]

I was thinking that the new 701s could be used but I forgot that they weren't bi-mode.

Fair enough. I see what you mean and why no one has come up with the idea so far

But are 701s suitable for longer distance services anyway?

 

[swt_passenger]

But are 701s suitable for longer distance services anyway?

They’re not going to go anywhere near Devon while it’s so far off the third rail…

 

[30907]

A few years ago, when there were regular Exeter-Plymouth(-Penzance) stoppers, it might have made some sense to investigate letting SWT run to Plymouth instead of those. As those now almost all start back from Cardiff, it no longer does.

 

[WizCastro197]

They’re not going to go anywhere near Devon while it’s so far off the third rail…

Haha, of course! I was imagining in a world where they were bi-mode, if they would be suitable for long distance services, which certainly must be no?

 

[150249]

They’re not going to go anywhere near Devon while it’s so far off the third rail…

How expensive would it be to covert it all?
Sounds like something the government would do. Can't be having that.

 

[JonathanH]

How expensive would it be to covert it all?
Sounds like something the government would do. Can't be having that.

There appears to be no government interest in extending the third rail to the remaining routes in the South East let alone anywhere else.

 

[WizCastro197]

There appears to be no government interest in extending the third rail to the remaining routes in the South East let alone anywhere else.

I agree, and I am fairly sure the West of England Mainline electrification is not one of the DfT's/Government's priorities for rail spending at the moment?

 

[Irascible]

Is there any space for or any point of a SWR expansion past Exeter? I was thinking that a service down to Plymouth like they used to have would be ideal for them and the county of Devon as a whole. It would also relieve some pressure from GWR with their ageing stock. What is everyone's thoughts?

SWT have the same ageing stock! ( er, it's SWR innit... well we're still getting it wrong after how many years? ). They are at least quite nice ageing stock. I'm not sure what you'd really gain other than not needing to trek across the footbridge at St Davids.

I agree, and I am fairly sure the West of England Mainline electrification is not one of the DfT's/Government's priorities for rail spending at the moment?

I needed a chuckle they can't even wire Bristol/Bath up, let alone wire to Exeter down the primary line, let alone do something about the secondary line to the south-west, let alone just do something about Exeter capacity... hope for batteries is as far as electrifying that ( or anywhere else in Devon ) is going to get.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

It would also relieve some pressure from GWR with their ageing stock. What is everyone's thoughts?

Using the same ageing stock as GWR?

 

[The Ham]

There could be an argument for running to Okehampton, or (if the route through to Tavistock we open) continue onto Plymouth.

However that's some time away, as SWR probably needs to focus on their core routes for now. Mostly trying to work out how to recover their passenger numbers.

 

[Irascible]

There could be an argument for running to Okehampton, or (if the route through to Tavistock we open) continue onto Plymouth.

However that's some time away, as SWR probably needs to focus on their core routes for now. Mostly trying to work out how to recover their passenger numbers.

I think the argument for running to Okehampton was to get a set out of the way if it's just going to be stabled at Exeter for a bit otherwise? rather than trying to recreate the 1950s. That would presumably mean splitting a 6 car unit at Exeter, but iirc don't they already do that so half of it can go on depot to get serviced? but that would also occupy one extra set too and I'm not sure that's the best place for it.

I'd like to see west of Salisbury passenger numbers ( I haven't actually looked for any yet ), very little has changed down here in general except prices & lack of anything on shelves.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I think the argument for running to Okehampton was to get a set out of the way if it's just going to be stabled at Exeter for a bit otherwise? rather than trying to recreate the 1950s. That would presumably mean splitting a 6 car unit at Exeter, but iirc don't they already do that so half of it can go on depot to get serviced? but that would also occupy one extra set too and I'm not sure that's the best place for it.

I'd like to see west of Salisbury passenger numbers ( I haven't actually looked for any yet ), very little has changed down here in general except prices & lack of anything on shelves.

Splitting a 6 car 159 at Exeter with a 3 car 159 going forward to Barnstaple would provide capacity problems on the Barnstaple branch in the peaks where a 3 car 158 is currently full and standing. The replacement of a 3 car unit with a same length train but with 1/2 of 1 coach being low density 2+1 First Class would not be sensible move given the drop in seats this would provide.

 

[Irascible]

Splitting a 6 car 159 at Exeter with a 3 car 159 going forward to Barnstaple would provide capacity problems on the Barnstaple branch in the peaks where a 3 car 158 is currently full and standing. The replacement of a 3 car unit with a same length train but with 1/2 of 1 coach being low density 2+1 First Class would not be sensible move given the drop in seats this would provide.

I wonder if there's an opportunity to run a full 6 car set up to Barnstaple & let GWR double another one up then... I suspect that'd leave a hole in the SWR service though.