Old Penalty Fare

[MamaMoo]

Hi there. Firstly, I hope this is the right place to post, my apologies if not. Secondly, this is awfully long winded, so my apologies in advance.

Right, in March 2009, I was on my way to work in Stratford upon Avon, and was due to board a train at Birmingham Moor Street. I was running late and was waiting in the queue at the ticket booth when I heard my train arrive. I dashed down and asked the guard as there was a massive queue and this was an infrequent train, if I could pay "with this card" and showed him my card.
He said yes, no problem, and I boarded, taking a seat right at the back of the train so I could pay as soon as he emerged to do ticket checks.
When he emerged, I handed him my card and he said "oh, that's an electron, we don't take those, I'm going to have to fine you"
I protested, and offered to buy a ticket at the other end of the journey, as I would need to return that evening anyway. The guard refused, and a woman sat near me said she worked for Centro, and gave me a one day scratch off travel card, however this was only valid in the West Midlands zone, and this only as far as Earlswood. The guard then said he would fine me from Earlswood to S-U-A. I protested but provided him with genuine details so I could appeal etc.
About 3 days after this event, I suffered a miscarriage, and forgot all about the fine. The address they had for me was the hostel I had recently moved into. About a month later I moved out as it was only temporary accommodation.
Fast forward to February 2010. I was notified that court action had taken place and I had a fine of around £700. As I had had no idea about this occurring, I made a statutory declaration on 27th May and that was that. I had my first son the following day, so things were hectic. London Midland had my new address etc and I expected to hear from them.
Again, fast forward six months, and I moved house to be nearer family. Another six months later I find out the same thing has happened again. Cue another stat dec, another letter to London Midland, and another "wait and see" moment as the ball was now in their court again.
I found out last week that this has occurred again this October (last letter to LM was sent in November last year, I moved house in May. I know, I've moved a lot due to an expanding family, and out last property being a health hazard. Fully rooted now and with no intention of moving)
I now have to make another Statutory declaration, and will inevitably, however long down the line, have to go to court. LM have always refused my appeals, so I feel court is my only option to have my day, and believe it or not, I actually want to go to court to stand my ground as what happened was entirely unfair!
I'm just wondering, after such a long time, what is the likelihood of a judge siding with me. Will I be looked down upon due to the number of times this has gone to court/number of stat decs I've made?
I was told by the court clerk that I look like a liar, even though I can prove all documentation was sent to an address I didn't live at by cross referencing London Midland's records of sent letters with my tenancy agreements. I don't want to go to fight this to basically be judged because of the whole rigmarole. Can anyone offer any advice
Thank you, and sorry for the long story!

 

[Dave1987]

Firstly I don't think you should have been fined and think the guard should have been a bit lenient especially as you asked before boarding if it was ok and you sat at the back of the train nearest the guard, you are clearly not trying to deliberately evade the fare. As far as the letters go I can understand it from LM's point of view, the constantly changing address would mean they would be at a loss as to where to post correspondence to. I would take it to court myself as like I said I feel the fine was harsh but that's my opinion.

 

[yorkie]

Firstly I don't think you should have been fined and think the guard should have been a bit lenient especially as you asked before boarding if it was ok and you sat at the back of the train nearest the guard, you are clearly not trying to deliberately evade the fare. As far as the letters go I can understand it from LM's point of view, the constantly changing address would mean they would be at a loss as to where to post correspondence to. I would take it to court myself as like I said I feel the fine was harsh but that's my opinion.

I would not recommend going to Court without first seeking the advice of a really good solicitor competent in railway ticketing matters.

But let's go back a bit here. Sorry for sounding pedantic but it is an important distinction to make: the customer will not have been fined on board the train. A fine can only be issued by a Court. So, unless there has been a court case in the customers absence, then there is still no fine (the 700 pounds quoted could be their costs, which would be in addition to the fine).

It is more likely that the customer was initially charged a Penalty Fare (PF). This is charged to customers who make a mistake under certain circumstances (not all mistakes can result in a PF) and on certain trains. A PF is not supposed to be charged in circumstances where the customer is believed to be attempting to avoid payment of the fare.

If a customer commences their journey at a Penalty Fare station, does not use ticket issuing facilities that are available, and boards a Penalty Fare train and ignores the required PF notices, then a PF is chargeable. The customer can ask on-board staff (where applicable) if they can buy a ticket on board and if that request is granted (which it usually would not be!), then that's quite lenient and helpful of the staff but is obviously dependent on the customer having the ability to pay with a valid payment method.

If the customer does not have a valid payment method (and Electron is not generally accepted by the rail industry) then that does open a can of worms.

If a PF is paid promptly, that is the end of the matter. The customer can still appeal against the PF.

However any fare that is not paid can then become a criminal matter and if the Train Company successfully prosecutes that may result in a fine, in addition to the fare and their costs.

A Penalty Fare should not be confused for a fine, because it is not only far lower in cost but it is, as the name suggests, a fare. Any fine would be in addition to the fare.

 

[34D]

Do you have any paperwork that relates to this that you could scan in (personal details removed)?

In particular, I would like to know whether we are talking about the Magistrates Court (which I assume we are) or the small claims court.

If everything you have said is 100% truthful (which I'm sure it is) then I agree that a PF isn't appropriate. Did the fare from the boundary to Stratford upon Avon ever get paid?

 

[MamaMoo]

It's a magistrates court. I can find some paperwork later and scan it in if necessary, I have kept everything I've received.
I did buy a return to Earlswood as soon as I got to Stratford, and the guard watched me do this (as SUA was the train's terminus, so he was there for a while)
I'd also shown the guard my previous week or so worth of tickets to show I wasn't trying to pull a fast one and travelled this route regularly, but this, combined with the fact I'd asked prior to boarding and shown my card, and complied with his wish to provide ID, was "not acceptable enough" to prove that I had not boarded the train with the intention of travelling without a ticket. Had the guard said "sorry, you need to buy a ticket first/we don't accept that card in board/just plain no" I'd have just put up and been late for work, I'd rather lose £5.50 odd of wages than £20+ penalty fare and fines!

Also, with regards to electron not being accepted by the rail industry, this was something I was not aware of at the time as I always bought my tickets at the station with my electron card, so didn't foresee any problems, especially after the guard had said it was fine.
In fact, he tried my card several times before saying "oh, wait, we don't take electron!"

 

[Dave1987]

I would not recommend going to Court without first seeking the advice of a really good solicitor competent in railway ticketing matters.

But let's go back a bit here. Sorry for sounding pedantic but it is an important distinction to make: the customer will not have been fined on board the train. A fine can only be issued by a Court. So, unless there has been a court case in the customers absence, then there is still no fine (the 700 pounds quoted could be their costs, which would be in addition to the fine).

It is more likely that the customer was initially charged a Penalty Fare (PF). This is charged to customers who make a mistake under certain circumstances (not all mistakes can result in a PF) and on certain trains. A PF is not supposed to be charged in circumstances where the customer is believed to be attempting to avoid payment of the fare.

If a customer commences their journey at a Penalty Fare station, does not use ticket issuing facilities that are available, and boards a Penalty Fare train and ignores the required PF notices, then a PF is chargeable. The customer can ask on-board staff (where applicable) if they can buy a ticket on board and if that request is granted (which it usually would not be!), then that's quite lenient and helpful of the staff but is obviously dependent on the customer having the ability to pay with a valid payment method.

If the customer does not have a valid payment method (and Electron is not generally accepted by the rail industry) then that does open a can of worms.

If a PF is paid promptly, that is the end of the matter. The customer can still appeal against the PF.

However any fare that is not paid can then become a criminal matter and if the Train Company successfully prosecutes that may result in a fine, in addition to the fare and their costs.

A Penalty Fare should not be confused for a fine, because it is not only far lower in cost but it is, as the name suggests, a fare. Any fine would be in addition to the fare.

I did state this was my opinion! I know all to well that services to stratford are only 1 an hour so can understand the reasons for the OP wanting to board and buy a ticket from the guard especially if the ticket office at Moor street was very busy. What I forgot to put in my post was for the OP to seek legal advice. It doesn't sound very fare that the guard has told the OP it is fine to buy a ticket on board only to then state he/she has to PF them because of the card type. Again this is my opinion.

 

[sonic2009]

To the OP do you still have the tickets you purchased at Stratford Upon Avon, once you got off the train?

 

[MamaMoo]

To the OP do you still have the tickets you purchased at Stratford Upon Avon, once you got off the train?

No, I actually sent them to London midland after the first Statutory declaration.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

To modify yorkie's advice, I would propose that the specialism you need in selecting a solicitor is not in Railway ticketing details (and they are few and far betwee) but just a Criminal Law Defence solicitor who is familiar with the administration of Court procedures.
The detail in your story is similar to many other matters which have nothing to to do with Railways but where a clear head and working knowledge of who does what within which time frames will allow somone at a local Law Firm to help you though the history of correspondence and time tables.

But please do take it to a local Law Firm soon.
I disagree with dave1987's advice; please don't be too enthusiastic to take it to a Court - just spend a few days in the back public benches of the local Magistrates Court to see how tiresome the recurring excuses quickly appear (I was in a hurry, I lost the letter, I moved house, I hadn't noticed, No one told me, It didn't say anything about xxx in the letter/ on the sign/ when I bought it . . . . And the Magistrates sit there passively as if it all might be true but really just impatient for the next coffee break).

. . . after such a long time, what is the likelihood of a judge siding with me. Will I be looked down upon due to the number of times this has gone to court/number of stat decs I've made?

The Magistrates might not be your friend - there will be no Judge there. Whether they form an opinion of you in response to the number of Statements you have made is irrelevant; they will be guided by their Clerk who will be guided by the Law and the facts presented by your advocate. You advocate will ensure that the facts which support you are presented. If there are not persuasive facts that merit being argued in Court then another remedy might be negotiated between Solicitors.

 

[telstarbox]

These are examples not endorsements and others may be available, but at least two solicitors regularly deal with railway fare evasion cases:
Solicitor 1
Solicitor 2

 

[Dave1987]

To modify yorkie's advice, I would propose that the specialism you need in selecting a solicitor is not in Railway ticketing details (and they are few and far betwee) but just a Criminal Law Defence solicitor who is familiar with the administration of Court procedures.
The detail in your story is similar to many other matters which have nothing to to do with Railways but where a clear head and working knowledge of who does what within which time frames will allow somone at a local Law Firm to help you though the history of correspondence and time tables.

But please do take it to a local Law Firm soon.
I disagree with dave1987's advice; please don't be too enthusiastic to take it to a Court - just spend a few days in the back public benches of the local Magistrates Court to see how tiresome the recurring excuses quickly appear (I was in a hurry, I lost the letter, I moved house, I hadn't noticed, No one told me, It didn't say anything about xxx in the letter/ on the sign/ when I bought it . . . . And the Magistrates sit there passively as if it all might be true but really just impatient for the next coffee break).
The Magistrates might not be your friend - there will be no Judge there. Whether they form an opinion of you in response to the number of Statements you have made is irrelevant; they will be guided by their Clerk who will be guided by the Law and the facts presented by your advocate. You advocate will ensure that the facts which support you are presented. If there are not persuasive facts that merit being argued in Court then another remedy might be negotiated between Solicitors.

But the crucial bit in this case is the actions of the guard who told the OP it was ok to board without a ticket! That makes all the difference doesnt it? The fact of the matter is is that if the OP had a means of payment that the guard could accept non of this would have happened. At least at court the OP has chance to put their arguements forward.

 

[Deerfold]

These are examples not endorsements and others may be available, but at least two solicitors regularly deal with railway fare evasion cases:
Solicitor 1
Solicitor 2

Depressingly the first of these appears not to know the difference between "formerly" and "formally" and the second appears to be scaremongering by suggesting that all cases lead to a criminal record - and apparently one that will not become "spent".

Note, I am not a lawyer, merely someone unimpressed by either of these websites.

 

[455driver]

A silly question but when you moved house did you have your post redirected, if not how did you get your post?

 

[reb0118]

A silly question but when you moved house did you have your post redirected, if not how did you get your post?

I believe there may be a charge for this so a lot of people don't bother. I still get official mail for previous owners here after over 15 years.

 

[Deerfold]

I believe there may be a charge for this so a lot of people don't bother. I still get official mail for previous owners here after over 15 years.

There is a charge of £47 for a year - for each surname.

 

[Be3G]

Indeed. And if you move again whilst one redirect is already in effect, you can't just modify it – instead you have to cancel it, then pay for a new one from house 1 -> house 3 (as well as house 2 -> house 3) and so on.

 

[455driver]

So how did she get her mail then?

 

[island]

Why didn't the guard allow you to alight at Earlswood or elsewhere to get a ticket?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

But the crucial bit in this case is the actions of the guard who told the OP it was ok to board without a ticket! That makes all the difference doesnt it? The fact of the matter is is that if the OP had a means of payment that the guard could accept non of this would have happened. At least at court the OP has chance to put their arguements forward.

I hesitate to repeat myself, but now (three years and nine months after the event) is not the time to be seeking the Decision of a Court over an oral instruction which (we must assume) has never been confirmed by the Railway Company. "Putting forward" such arguments at this stage is not likely to provide any of the more favourable outcomes for the OP.

There is merit (and by that I mean the most likely probabilities of avoiding significant costs which is not the same thing as having their point of view vindicated) in instructing a local Criminal Defence Lawyer experienced in Court Procedure.
I'm sorry if I'm not expressing myself clearly. I hope the OP is in less doubt.

 

[MamaMoo]

Firstly, no I didn't redirect my mail, I let the bank/utitlity companies/companies who regularly mailed me etc know in advance. I can't afford £47 per year for mail to be redirected, especially as I had made all relevant companies aware (IMO L.M. We're not a relevant company as they hadn't contacted me in the previous six months)
Secondly, the guard didn't allow me to slight to get a ticket as a) If the train were to wait there would be a delay and b) Earlswood, and many other stations after it, are I believe mostly unmanned.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
One thing that's bothering me here is that I cannot afford a lawyer of any sort to elp me with this case, so I will be defending myself.

 

[island]

With the number of times this went through the court process, I should have thought that one would have taken extra care and effort after the first, or certainly the second, Statutory Declaration, to stay on top of the matter and ensure that one proactively followed up the issue with the Train Company and the Court.

I have no idea whether the Courts can reject a Statutory Declaration as an abuse of process, but if they can, I suspect they will.

Otherwise, I expect an uphill battle, and bearing in mind the considerable costs likely to be assessed by the Court, perhaps that £47 redirect order is not such a bad investment?

The Citizens Advice Bureau may potentially be able to put you in touch with a pro bono lawyer, or give you some advice if not. But you should ask yourself what your goal from all this palaver is.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . I cannot afford a lawyer of any sort to elp me with this case, so I will be defending myself.

Without studying all the Evidence and other papers I cannot make a sure assessment of your risk, but I'm inclined to think that allowing it to proceed to Court and conducting your own Defence will leave you worse off than any settlement that you could reach with the Prosecution now.

Much as the Clerk might prompt you, (s)he is unlikely to be able to find a way through the history of this matter which would lead to the Court abandoning the Claim and then to facilitate that for you in your favour. The Prosecution would Object and with all respect to someone I have not met, but based on your postings on here, I suspect that you will not be able to do that yourself, either. That's why I'm assessing your risk as favouring NOT letting it go any further towards Court, in contradiction to dave1987's advice.