Northern Short Forming Again

[MichaelTrains]

Yes it's unacceptable. But considering all the replies and explanations to your original post on 19th October 2023, what is your new proposal to solve this. Bearing in mind that all your previous proposals have already been shown to not work. Please do tell us as we are all still waiting for a solution that will work, not just on the Calder Valley route but on all the other routes across the Northern Network that equally suffer as yours does....

How many units do Northern actually own? Have available on a daily basis?

I’m simply not accepting that this is the way things are or should be heading into 2025.

Northern running crush loaded two car 195s on busy cross-Pennine journeys.

 

[sportzbar]

How many units do Northern actually own? Have available on a daily basis?

I’m simply not accepting that this is the way things are or should be heading into 2025.

Northern running crush loaded two car 195s on busy cross-Pennine journeys.

Accept it or not. It is what it is. Still not seen you proposal yet though....

 

[MichaelTrains]

The ironic thing about this is if some of those passengers would have waited the service from Chester to Leeds wasn't too far behind it at Rochdale so they wouldn't have had to wait that long for the next service.

There were no announcements about this although after leaving Halifax I did notice it was right behind us but I was too close to the end of my journey to consider it.

 

[Lewisham2221]

How many units do Northern actually own?

Precisely zero. [/pedant]

It might appear a waste of capacity, but sometimes a doubled up unit is the difference between a train running or no train running. For example, two units with cab defects can be coupled together with the defective cabs boxed in, where neither unit would be able to operate alone, you now have a usable train, albeit longer than otherwise necessary.

Similarly, one unit could be perfectly healthy, but the one coupled to it less so. But running them together allows the unhealthy unit to get back to a maintenance depot.

Short formed trains are extremely frustrating for everyone concerned, but there's usually a genuine reason and - perhaps even more so - there's usually a genuine reason why other, longer formed, trains are where they are and aren't split or swapped. As I say, extremely frustrating, but there's usually a bigger picture.

 

[3RDGEN]

How many units do Northern actually own? Have available on a daily basis?

I’m simply not accepting that this is the way things are or should be heading into 2025.

Northern running crush loaded two car 195s on busy cross-Pennine journeys.

Northern is subject to FOI so you can request the diagrams if you wish and they will show what is diagrammed on a daily basis. Thanks to "Jonathan Sculley" the draft diagrams for December 2024 are available here; "https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/december_2024_unit_diagrams?unfold=1".

The weekday diagrams indicate that for 25 * 195/0 there's 2 on Mtce and 1 at Wolverton and for 33 * 195/1 it's 3 on Mtce and 2 at Wolverton. One of the Wolverton units is referenced to "GRANGE" so I guess the derailment unit and another "YAW" so maybe crack repairs perhaps?

So there's 50 195 diagrams to cover on weekdays from the 58 units, 55 if you exclude the 3 diagrammed at Wolverton, that's 91% availability which I suspect Northern/CAF have next to no chance of delivering. The far superior 185's diagram at that level but the 19* CAF fleets are not even comparable.

Given Northern have multiple fleets they can swap units around a little, the CL155's are diagrammed at 6 from 7 but if you are short of them you can use a 150/158 instead, but you are "Robbing Peter to pay Paul". If you want more spare units to reduce short forming that's fine but someone has to pay for them and the associated other costs, so is it fare increases or more taxpayer subsidy?

 

[david l]

Northern is subject to FOI so you can request the diagrams if you wish and they will show what is diagrammed on a daily basis. Thanks to "Jonathan Sculley" the draft diagrams for December 2024 are available here; "https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/december_2024_unit_diagrams?unfold=1".

The weekday diagrams indicate that for 25 * 195/0 there's 2 on Mtce and 1 at Wolverton and for 33 * 195/1 it's 3 on Mtce and 2 at Wolverton. One of the Wolverton units is referenced to "GRANGE" so I guess the derailment unit and another "YAW" so maybe crack repairs perhaps?

So there's 50 195 diagrams to cover on weekdays from the 58 units, 55 if you exclude the 3 diagrammed at Wolverton, that's 91% availability which I suspect Northern/CAF have next to no chance of delivering. The far superior 185's diagram at that level but the 19* CAF fleets are not even comparable.

Given Northern have multiple fleets they can swap units around a little, the CL155's are diagrammed at 6 from 7 but if you are short of them you can use a 150/158 instead, but you are "Robbing Peter to pay Paul". If you want more spare units to reduce short forming that's fine but someone has to pay for them and the associated other costs, so is it fare increases or more taxpayer subsidy?

You also have the position on the west side of the 769's. 6 out of 8 are diagrammed (Mon-Sat), and rarely do you finish a day with 6, even if you amazingly start with 6. I have seen days of 0-6 (except 1 as 1 can't go out on its own, as there is nothing to rescue it). Take a usual day of say 3 or 4, that means that NH has to find 4 or 6 150/156's to cover, unless of course they short form.

 

[3RDGEN]

You also have the position on the west side of the 769's. 6 out of 8 are diagrammed (Mon-Sat), and rarely do you finish a day with 6, even if you amazingly start with 6. I have seen days of 0-6 (except 1 as 1 can't go out on its own, as there is nothing to rescue it). Take a usual day of say 3 or 4, that means that NH has to find 4 or 6 150/156's to cover, unless of course they short form.

The west side certainly has the worst of it with 195 and the 769 fleet issues to handle the extra 323's will hopefully help, here in the east at least we have the more stable fleets and you can swap around the 15x diagrams and 158's for 170's without that much pain. With leaf fall season finishing we should see an improvement in availability so that may help reduce short forming a bit.

 

[DJH1971]

Whilst cancellations seem rife at the moment.

As well as the 15:42 Liverpool Lime Street to Wigan North Western (which almost always never runs), the 16:30 Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Victoria service has been cancelled virtually every day this week.

The 06:56 and 16:56 services from Liverpool Lime Street to Warrington Central are services that also seem to be canceled virtually all the time.

 

[Kite159]

The west side certainly has the worst of it with 195 and the 769 fleet issues to handle the extra 323's will hopefully help, here in the east at least we have the more stable fleets and you can swap around the 15x diagrams and 158's for 170's without that much pain. With leaf fall season finishing we should see an improvement in availability so that may help reduce short forming a bit.

The extra 323s will only help the electric side, won't resolve any issues with the diesel availability considering the only services Northern run DMUs under wires are the Hazel Grove stoppers, but those interwork with the Buxton trains so you might save a pair of 150s by using a 323 and having the Buxton trains sit around at Piccadilly for ~ 63 minutes.

 

[northernchris]

Yes it's unacceptable. But considering all the replies and explanations to your original post on 19th October 2023, what is your new proposal to solve this. Bearing in mind that all your previous proposals have already been shown to not work. Please do tell us as we are all still waiting for a solution that will work, not just on the Calder Valley route but on all the other routes across the Northern Network that equally suffer as yours does....

I've noticed a few times recently advance tickets are still being sold for trains which are short formed, which is adding to the crowding. Whilst it won't reduce shortforming, withdrawing discounted tickets from trains running with fewer carriages than planned may help to reduce the crowds.

 

[Killingworth]

I've noticed a few times recently advance tickets are still being sold for trains which are short formed, which is adding to the crowding. Whilst it won't reduce shortforming, withdrawing discounted tickets from trains running with fewer carriages than planned may help to reduce the crowds.

Short forming is more likely to occur at relatively short notice!

 

[MichaelTrains]

Here is a question.

Who ultimately decides to run Leeds to Chesters as double 195s but York to Blackpool as a single 195?

You would have thought that York to Blackpool would the core route that got strengthened?

 

[skyhigh]

You would have thought that York to Blackpool would the core route that got strengthened?

Why is that?

 

[sportzbar]

Here is a question.

Who ultimately decides to run Leeds to Chesters as double 195s but York to Blackpool as a single 195?

You would have thought that York to Blackpool would the core route that got strengthened?

That would be planning based on passenger numbers (predicted before the Leeds to Chester service began) and confirmed with current passenger numbers. Now I think that those in planning are significantly more qualified than most of us to look at the figures overall for both routes and decide which gets 4 cars and which gets 3 cars. Remembering that both routes do have sections where they are absolutely full and standing and sections where they are not.

Why not get in touch with them to discuss your thoughts? I'm sure I've suggested you do that a few times since you started this thread but can't recall any time that you say you have....?

 

[3RDGEN]

Here is a question.

Who ultimately decides to run Leeds to Chesters as double 195s but York to Blackpool as a single 195?

You would have thought that York to Blackpool would the core route that got strengthened?

The weekday diagrams show the Blackpool's are booked 195/1's and Chester is either double 195/0 or a 195/1, Leeds - Manchester Vic route will be the busier route and hence the greater capacity. With the direct Leeds - Manchester TPE route being closed regularly for engineering works and passengers transferring over from TPE to Northern having more booked capacity is helpful.