Northern Rail lose 50p court case

[plannerman]

why should customers have to wait for one person to issue tickets for up to 20 people on arrival ?

At James Street on Merseyrail they don't - several times I have travelled in from Bache when the TVM has been u/s, to be told by the guard to buy a ticket on arrival. On arrival at James Street, the ticket window is the 'other' side of the barriers - hence staff hold the barriers open, and ticketless customers disappear through the doors and out.

 

[Lampshade]

They need more G4S on barriers... many stations on the MAC-MAN line have closed ticket offices after 1200; Bramhall/Adlington etc.. you get a queue off every stopper and one person selling tickets especially if Guard hasn't been able to get through train.. why should customers have to wait for one person to issue tickets for up to 20 people on arrival ?

It's not just on the Macclesfield line, the Airport line is probably the worst with Guards sometimes not even bothering to sell tickets at all after Wilmslow (heading towards Manchester) leaving all the HDG/GAT/EDY/BNA/MAU passengers to queue up at Piccadilly. I used to travel on this line until I had a run in with a G4S guy at Piccadilly, now I use Levenshulme which is staffed much longer.

The Buxton line can also be a blackspot for non-collection of revenue, I've complained to Northern twice now after boarding at Chapel-en-le-Frith, having my ticket checked and then no further ticket checks taking place all the way to Manchester.

So it's not more G4S that are needed, what's needed are more ticket issuing facilities and longer staffing hours.

 

[WestCoast]

So it's not more G4S that are needed, what's needed are more ticket issuing facilities and longer staffing hours.

I completely agree! G4S aren't well liked as some of them seem to be desperately lacking in appropriate knowledge.

TfGM and Northern need to sort out the ticketing in the area. A good example is Merseyrail who have staffed ticket offices and/or TVMs at every station.

Now I'm not saying that is necessarily cost-efficient for the GM area, but it would be good if more (metrolink-style) TVMs could be installed at stations like Blackrod and Mauldeth Road. It would ease the ticket queues at Piccadilly, collect more revenue and help guards/RPIs.

 

[cuccir]

As has been pointed out, Northern have a lot of quite difficult routes with regards to revenue collection. Although they sound like a good idea, the vouchers seem to be adding in a factor that potentially complicates the issue for both staff and passengers.

How much cheaper would it be (compared to full TVMs) to install a simple Permit to Travel style machine at these stations? You could even make permits available for free but crucially it would mean that all passengers would have a stamped permit proving where they boarded.

 

[clagmonster]

Also, said permit would be approved by the NRCoC.
Sadly, Condition 2 specifically referes to PTT machines, so the need wouldn't be satisfied by calling the vouchers PTTs.

In principle I like the voucher system, but legally it seems it is not watertight. That said, either there is some evidence that the defence used that we don't know about, or stating a mistake like this is sufficient to mean that intend can't be proved beyond doubt (presumably this could now be considered case law?). Maybe the defence was able to prve that he later travelled back to Newton for Hyde. I would be quite interested to know.

 

[ian13]

In principle I like the voucher system, but legally it seems it is not watertight. That said, either there is some evidence that the defence used that we don't know about, or stating a mistake like this is sufficient to mean that intend can't be proved beyond doubt (presumably this could now be considered case law?). Maybe the defence was able to prve that he later travelled back to Newton for Hyde. I would be quite interested to know.

A voucher is just further evidence that one didn't travel from a particular station - but I suspect the courts would require at least a couple of witnesses also given that there is no legal obligation to obtain or retain such a voucher. It does serve as a visual deterrent though (but why couldn't they just sell tickets at that station!)

To be considered common law, it has to come from Court of Appeal or higher. Magistrates don't make precedent, so this won't have any standing in further cases.

Personally I think the judge took pity on him as he had claimed to offer to pay the difference previously, I don't know wether he did it on purpose or not but it sends the wrong message out, how many peoplle will try using that excuse now? fare dodgers will be rubbing their hands with glee now!

Sadly, this seems a pretty good summation.

 

[yorkie]

Sadly, this seems a pretty good summation.

On the contrary. Do judges really "take pity" on people? Is there any basis for this? It just looks like sour grapes to me.

Justice was served, but at a huge cost - and I am pretty sure that taxpayers are likely to bear that cost.

 

[sheff1]

What do these 'vouchers' look like ? Is there a statement on them that they should be retained for inspection ? Are passengers told to retain them when they are issued ?

The only time I have encountered a 'voucher' was at the Supertram entrance at Sheffield. As I entered the station I was asked for a ticket. I showed my weekly tram ticket and was then given a completely blank rail ticket in a plastic wallet. No explanation as to what it was for or what I needed to do with it. No one ever asked to see it again - I found it in my jacket pocket about a week later !

TfGM and Northern need to sort out the ticketing in the area. A good example is Merseyrail who have staffed ticket offices and/or TVMs at every station.

Yes, Merseyrail serves areas just as iffy as the Hadfield line but have stations which are staffed from first to last train.

Strangely, after avoiding the area for years, I had reason to board at Flowery Field twice in the last few weeks. It was impossible to buy a ticket there and no checks were made on train. Plenty of people seemed to be travelling.

 

[ian13]

On the contrary. Do judges really "take pity" on people? Is there any basis for this? It just looks like sour grapes to me.

Justice was served, but at a huge cost - and I am pretty sure that taxpayers are likely to bear that cost.

The issue is, if one is caught out fare dodging and offers to pay upon realising then it now seems like one might be cleared. Now, not to say in this case it was deliberate, but it's provides an easy mask for any evasion.

To be fair, he did commit (and admit to) an act which could constitute fraud (buying a ticket not valid for his entire journey). What makes him not guilty is that he didn't intend to defraud.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

On the contrary. Do judges really "take pity" on people?

Yes, of course they do, they're human too!
But they would NEVER let their pity cloud their Judgement.

Anyway, this incident has nothing to do with Judges, it was heard by Magistrates (three of them I assume, advised by a Clerk). The Clerk in a Magistrates Court is highly qualified, experienced and trained, and will ensure that the Magistrates' Decision is firmly based in the letter of the Law and on the Evidence they were presented. Nothing more.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The issue is, if one is caught out fare dodging and offers to pay upon realising then it now seems like one might be cleared. Now, not to say in this case it was deliberate, but it's provides an easy mask for any evasion.

No. Case Law is absolutely clear in this matter and has been tested repeatedly.
This incident sets no precedent, as has already been explained.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

It's not just on the Macclesfield line, the Airport line is probably the worst with Guards sometimes not even bothering to sell tickets at all after Wilmslow (heading towards Manchester) leaving all the HDG/GAT/EDY/BNA/MAU passengers to queue up at Piccadilly. I used to travel on this line until I had a run in with a G4S guy at Piccadilly, now I use Levenshulme which is staffed much longer.

The Buxton line can also be a blackspot for non-collection of revenue, I've complained to Northern twice now after boarding at Chapel-en-le-Frith, having my ticket checked and then no further ticket checks taking place all the way to Manchester.

So it's not more G4S that are needed, what's needed are more ticket issuing facilities and longer staffing hours.

yep and they ALL have booking offices so why don't they buy before they travel??? I always remind passengers when I do my announcements that if they board at a station with open booking office they must purchase their ticket there as everyone likes mentioning conditions of carriage..thats what it states IF yoy have boarded at a station with ticket purchasing facilities there can't be any argument, another reason alot of us don't "bother" checking tickets after MIA is very simple 2 minutes between stops, i'm lucky to get 2 or 3 rows down before I have to go to my back cab to do the doors, blame the distance between stops not us,and I always go out again after Mauldeth road anyway, regarding Buxton after leaving Chapel I won't go out again til after Disley then again after Stockport, thats what the Majority of guards do, 150s and 156s are normally good units to work but the design of them means that if you are going back and forth all the time you end up causing delays by the time you got through your vestibule undid the hatch over the door controls and then got the door open (slightly different on each unit).

Thats from a lowly guards point of view!

 

[CarterUSM]

Intermediate door panels would help also. ScotRail fitted them to 156's some years ago and they made some difference .

 

[Lampshade]

yep and they ALL have booking offices so why don't they buy before they travel???

Stations after MIA are only staffed until 1400 and MAU has only just been restaffed after about 2 years of being unstaffed. While this is OK in the morning when the booking offices are open, in the evening (particularly the 1630 from MAU) there are no TVMs or ticket offices open so a packed 323 arrives into Piccadilly with 20/30 people without tickets, then have to spend 10 minutes queueing up having been unable to get one.

This thread shows my experience with this: http://railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=41704

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Stations after MIA are only staffed until 1400 and MAU has only just been restaffed after about 2 years of being unstaffed. While this is OK in the morning when the booking offices are open, in the evening (particularly the 1630 from MAU) there are no TVMs or ticket offices open so a packed 323 arrives into Piccadilly with 20/30 people without tickets, then have to spend 10 minutes queueing up having been unable to get one.

This thread shows my experience with this: http://railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=41704

in my experience after midday we tend to get the majority, very unlikely to get a packed 323 after midday (apart from the evening peak and if an event is on), remember its also about funding aswell, gmpte also have a very large part to play in regards to Ticket offices, as a quick note I do know for a fact TVM's will be coming to the Mid Cheshire line (bumped into the line manager while he was out checking sites) so they could be on there way! oh btw sorry to be pedantic but if you are worried about not getting a ticket and as we are always sat on our a** in the back cab, maybe you should try something original like knocking! then we would have to put our multitude of newspapers books down and open the door and you may just be lucky and get a ticket!

 

[Anvil1984]

in my experience after midday we tend to get the majority, very unlikely to get a packed 323 after midday (apart from the evening peak and if an event is on), remember its also about funding aswell, gmpte also have a very large part to play in regards to Ticket offices, as a quick note I do know for a fact TVM's will be coming to the Mid Cheshire line (bumped into the line manager while he was out checking sites) so they could be on there way! oh btw sorry to be pedantic but if you are worried about not getting a ticket and as we are always sat on our a** in the back cab, maybe you should try something original like knocking! then we would have to put our multitude of newspapers books down and open the door and you may just be lucky and get a ticket!

And finish your 7th cup of tea , we all must have tea whilst we are sat there doing sweet FA :roll:

 

[ANorthernGuard]

And finish your 7th cup of tea , we all must have tea whilst we are sat there doing sweet FA :roll:

I Prefer Coffee with a cream cake personally lol

 

[Prodigy]

I'm just wondering if Northern and other train companies are so worried about fare dodging why do they continue to make it easy on many routes even if they're staffing these locations. Not only are Platform 13 + 14 usually the only platforms ticket checked at Picadilly, but both Victoria and Picadilly have many routes kids and even adults use where they can slip out of the station without being ticket checked at the barriers.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I'm just wondering if Northern and other train companies are so worried about fare dodging why do they continue to make it easy on many routes even if they're staffing these locations. Not only are Platform 13 + 14 usually the only platforms ticket checked at Picadilly, but both Victoria and Picadilly have many routes kids and even adults use where they can slip out of the station without being ticket checked at the barriers.

Northern would love it Barriered, its Notwork Rails doing i'm afraid (open station yadda yadda)

 

[Prodigy]

Northern would love it Barriered, its Notwork Rails doing i'm afraid (open station yadda yadda)

Ah, though I do commend northerns work at victoria, just don't get the little opening on platform three. Have Northern, or G4S ever thought of checking on the steps that lead you out on to deansgate at platform three? Or the little gap you can slip out of?

 

[Anvil1984]

I Prefer Coffee with a cream cake personally lol

Can of Relentless for me as I'm allergic to tea and coffee (its weird). Unless you have intermediate DKS and an additional member of revenue staff during the peak you are fighting a losing battle. I dont work electrics (devils work that electricit-mebob) but work 4 car 150s regularly on a line which has 15+ stops and an average of about 4 minutes between each stop and if the additional member isnt there you are screwed. But its always the guards fault, same as if no announcement is done and a person misses the stop because we have someone paying a 85p fare with a card, its the guards fault
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ah, though I do commend northerns work at victoria, just don't get the little opening on platform three. Have Northern, or G4S ever thought of checking on the steps that lead you out on to deansgate at platform three? Or the little gap you can slip out of?

Well its not Northern, its G4S on Northerns behalf they often run excercises (from what they tell me) where they try to catch people using the escape routes. Have yet to see that though

 

[Prodigy]

Can of Relentless for me as I'm allergic to tea and coffee (its weird). Unless you have intermediate DKS and an additional member of revenue staff during the peak you are fighting a losing battle. I dont work electrics (devils work that electricit-mebob) but work 4 car 150s regularly on a line which has 15+ stops and an average of about 4 minutes between each stop and if the additional member isnt there you are screwed. But its always the guards fault, same as if no announcement is done and a person misses the stop because we have someone paying a 85p fare with a card, its the guards fault
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Well its not Northern, its G4S on Northerns behalf they often run excercises (from what they tell me) where they try to catch people using the escape routes. Have yet to see that though

Nor have I, though I have heard a few people have been caught. I mean to be honest Northern would probably do a better job, G4S (well most) seem like middle aged men who haven't slept properly for most of there life.

 

[ian13]

It'd be nice (but ultimately unrealistic in our culture I feel) if we could implement an honour system. Vancouver and Toronto, Canada do a great job of this. Everywhere has ticket issuing facilities (TVMs if not staff), and the money from this can come from not having barriers.

Yep, you can just walk onto the trains. However, if you are inspected and don't have a valid ticket, expect a nice fine ($150 on Vancouver regional rail). Conductors need only walk through and actually inspect, rather than spending 10 minutes selling a ticket to one customer.

 

[WestCoast]

It'd be nice (but ultimately unrealistic in our culture I feel) if we could implement an honour system. Vancouver and Toronto, Canada do a great job of this. Everywhere has ticket issuing facilities (TVMs if not staff), and the money from this can come from not having barriers.

Yep, you can just walk onto the trains. However, if you are inspected and don't have a valid ticket, expect a nice fine ($150 on Vancouver regional rail). Conductors need only walk through and actually inspect, rather than spending 10 minutes selling a ticket to one customer.

Well, don't forget that the UK already has honour/proof-of-payment arrangements on self-contained systems such as the Manchester Metrolink, Croydon Tramlink, Tyne & Wear Metro and the DLR. The Metrolink in Manchester is operating with up to £100 fines for evasion, with TfL operating a £50/£25 scheme.

A lot of people on RailUK are opposed to Penalty Fares in a National Rail setting. I personally think there is a need for them on busy city commuter routes with short-distances between stations, providing that there is a ticket office at almost every station or at the very least, 2 TVMs with a Permit-To-Travel machine.

I personally like what SNCB in Belgium do with fares - if you inform a member of the train crew prior to boarding that you don't have a ticket, they will sell you one subject to a relatively small supplement, but without any railcard discounts e.t.c. If you don't do that, you'll pay the fare plus a penalty supplement of 12.50 euros, which increases if not paid either immediately or within 14 days.