Northern rail FtP

[Hutchie]

Hi,

I was wondering if someone could help me with some advice please. Last month I was given a failure to pay notice. It seemed stupid at the time as an employee with a working machine was stood next to him. I didn't buy a ticket as the man at the office had put up a "be back soon" sign and no one was on the train selling them.

I've got this train hundreds of times before and it's never been an issue to buy at my destination, Piccadilly.

I was given the FtP and assured it wasn't a fine. The next morning I tried to pay it, however, it was not logged onto the system. I have only just come round to trying a second time now however £80 has been added on. I've tried to appeal this online but there doesn't appear to be appeal option for my number starting "FTP".

I've read up a lot online and assume the £80 has been added as I didn't pay in time. ( even though I did and they just hadn't put it on their system and therefore couldn't). I also had no intention of ever avoiding the ticket and expected to pay when getting off at Piccadilly as I have done many times.

It seems extremely unlawful to add a fine of £80 for not paying within a certain timeframe, considering I tried to do it the next day and Wasn't able to. From what I understand I will be summoned to court. I will try and speak to them on the phone on Monday but doubt I will have any luck or be treated reasonably.

Can anyone please advise on this situation or have been in it themselves? Any advice is greatly appeciated!

 

[yorkie]

Hi,

I was wondering if someone could help me with some advice please. Last month I was given a failure to pay notice. It seemed stupid at the time as an employee with a working machine was stood next to him. I didn't buy a ticket as the man at the office had put up a "be back soon" sign and no one was on the train selling them

If there was no facility to buy the ticket at the origin station and did not do anything to attempt to avoid payment of the fare, you have done nothing wrong.

I was given the FtP and assured it wasn't a fine.

Correct, it isn't.

The next morning I tried to pay it, however, it was not logged onto the system. I have only just come round to trying a second time now however £80 has been added on. I've tried to appeal this online but there doesn't appear to be appeal option for my number starting "FTP".

Pay the original amount due, and not the extra £80.

I've read up a lot online and assume the £80 has been added as I didn't pay in time. ( even though I did and they just hadn't put it on their system and therefore couldn't). I also had no intention of ever avoiding the ticket and expected to pay when getting off at Piccadilly as I have done many times.

What are the timescales involved? Pay the correct sum, and nothing more, as soon as possible.

It seems extremely unlawful to add a fine of £80 for not paying within a certain timeframe, considering I tried to do it the next day and Wasn't able to. From what I understand I will be summoned to court. I will try and speak to them on the phone on Monday but doubt I will have any luck or be treated reasonably.

It is not legally a fine, and you are right it would be unlawful for a fine to be added. Just pay them the amount due for the appropriate fare ASAP.

Can anyone please advise on this situation or have been in it themselves? Any advice is greatly appeciated!

I would want much more information to be able to give comprehensive advice.

 

[clagmonster]

I didn't buy a ticket as the man at the office had put up a "be back soon" sign and no one was on the train selling them.

Were there any other facilities to pay at your origin station, for example a ticket vending machine or even a person selling tickets on the other platform?

Was it a direct train to Piccadilly, or did you have to change?

 

[najaB]

I was wondering if someone could help me with some advice please. Last month I was given a failure to pay notice.

What date did this occur on?

 

[DaleCooper]

How much time passed between your first attempt to pay and the next? From what you have said it could be a matter of weeks.

 

[Starmill]

Northern say they don't issue Failure to Pay notices to people who didn't, well, Fail to Pay. If the ticket office wasn't open, and there were no other facilities to buy a ticket at that station you just get on the train. Don't accept an FtP notice in this case, just pay the fare due as soon as possible. They're right about it not being a fine (because they aren't allowed to charge one), but someone on here recently assured us "there are appropriate safeguards in place" with Northerns unregulated Penalty Fare scheme that wouldn't be allowed as the genuine article.

 

[najaB]

Don't accept an FtP notice in this case, just pay the fare due as soon as possible. They're right about it not being a fine (because they aren't allowed to charge one)...

As I read it, in this case the FtP was being used to the same effect as an Unpaid Fare Notice - if the OP had paid it in time then nothing more than the fare would have been due. They attempted to pay the next day and then apparently left it for more than three weeks before trying again. That part is not Northern's doing.

 

[Starmill]

I see no justification for issuing someone who has means to pay there and then with an Unpaid Fares Notice. Nonetheless I'm not sure this is relevant, as they do not seem to have been issued with one.

Someone who hasn't failed to pay should not be issued with a FtP notice. That is a 'safeguard' that should be applied at all times to this highly dubious scheme.

 

[najaB]

Someone who hasn't failed to pay should not be issued with a FtP notice. That is a 'safeguard' that should be applied at all times to this highly dubious scheme.

According to the OP, they received the FtP at their destination station, having travelled from a station that ostensibly had an open ticket office. If the RPI wasn't able to immediately confirm that the OP had in fact been met by a 'come back later' sign, the FtP notice wasn't unreasonable.

I'm not saying it was the only course of action available, but it wasn't an over-the-top reaction.

 

[Starmill]

According to the OP, they received the FtP at their destination station, having travelled from a station that ostensibly had an open ticket office. If the RPI wasn't able to immediately confirm that the OP had in fact been met by a 'come back later' sign, the FtP notice wasn't unreasonable.

I'm not saying it was the only course of action available, but it wasn't an over-the-top reaction.

I disagree. As part of the scheme having the appropriate safeguards so that this sort of thing does not happen, real time information should be available to staff regarding the status of facilities. They should have known that the ticket office had to close temporarily. Now I will leave it as an open question as to whether or not they would have had any way of knowing that. But it must be OK, because it has been claimed on here that the appropriate safeguards are all in place - and that "Northern also have an obligation to ensure that booking offices are staffed as required and that where guards struggle to collect revenue on "pay trains" that they are fully supported with ATEs or the equivalent."