Northern Rail - Details Taken

[Longrod]

I recently had my details taken at Manchester Piccadilly, which I now believe was a Revenue Protection Member of staff. I had no idea at the time, I wasn't cautioned, but they asked me questions and took my name and address.

I was travelling with someone else, who also had their details taken. They have received a letter asking for a version of events. Yet, 2 weeks on, I have received no letter.

I was just wondering if anyone knows if people are always given a chance to respond, or if there are circumstances where they go straight to a Court Summons.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I know I've made a mistake, it was a one off, and I've already learned a huge lesson, that I won't be going near a train without buying a ticket first ever again.

 

[najaB]

Could you provide a bit more info, please. At the minimum we need to know:

• Were you boarding a train or alighting?
• If alighting then at what station had you started your journey?
• Did you hold any ticket at all?

 

[Longrod]

Without naming the start Station,(It had no ticket facilities, nobody selling on the train) I arrived at Manchester Piccadilly and asked for a ticket for Levenshulme. Which I now know is called Short Faring. Absolutley crazy thing to do, I can't even explain why I did it, because I needed a return. Its only the second time I've caught a train in 2017. I still have the ticket I bought from start station, because the ticket office is open in the morning.

Just finding it strange that the person with me has received a letter and I haven't.

 

[najaB]

Which I now know is called Short Faring.

That completely changes things. You'll be lucky to get away without this costing you a few pennies.

Just finding it strange that the person with me has received a letter and I haven't.

That doesn't necessarily mean anything, TOCs have up to six months to bring charges if they want to so your case may still be working its way through the pile.

 

[Longrod]

I’m wondering whether to ring them or not, that’s why I’m asking if they always give you a chance to respond by letter before they prosecute.

 

[najaB]

I’m wondering whether to ring them or not, that’s why I’m asking if they always give you a chance to respond by letter before they prosecute.

There's no requirement for them to ask for your version of events before deciding to prosecute (they may feel that they have enough information to win a case) but that is rare. I fully expect that they will write soon with either (a) a settlement offer; or (b) an opportunity for you to explain why they shouldn't proceed with a prosecution.

 

[Harbouring]

I would avoid ringing them. You’ll never know what you’ll say on the phone and you might say something you don’t mean and it gets taken the wrong way and might prejudice your case. Sit tight and wait for the letter, unless you have lots of previous you’ll probably get a chance to respond. When the letter comes I’m sure people on here can help you interpret it and assist with a reply.

 

[Puffing Devil]

I’m wondering whether to ring them or not, that’s why I’m asking if they always give you a chance to respond by letter before they prosecute.

Three scenarios here:

1) Northern have lost your file/information. If you contact them the case may be resurrected. If not, you're a lucky short farer.

2) Your case is still in the system - sit tight and you may get a letter.

3) A letter has been sent, but has been lost or gone to the wrong address. Chances are if Northern don't get a reply, they will go to court to avoid the matter timing out, as they only have 6 months from the offence date. You may get this letter, or it may catch-up with you later, when the matter has been through the court system. Chances are you would miss your opporunity to settle out of court.

It's up to you as to which path you want to take. I

 

[najaB]

Chances are you would miss your opportunity to settle out of court.

Not necessarily. If the OP is convicted in his absence and makes a statutory declaration to the effect that they knew nothing of the proceedings that the TOC may still accept a settlement (due to them getting all of the money, rather than a small proportion of a Court-imposed fine).

 

[gray1404]

It is too soon yet. Wait a while longer for a letter in the post.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Not necessarily. If the OP is convicted in his absence and makes a statutory declaration to the effect that they knew nothing of the proceedings that the TOC may still accept a settlement (due to them getting all of the money, rather than a small proportion of a Court-imposed fine).

That's why I said "chances are": As it's in the court system, that usual £80 initial offer would not be on the table and the costs incurred by Northern would have an increased, meaning that if there was to be a settlement it would most likely be a higher figure.

 

[najaB]

That's why I said "chances are": As it's in the court system, that usual £80 initial offer would not be on the table and the costs incurred by Northern would have an increased, meaning that if there was to be a settlement it would most likely be a higher figure.

If this was due to their mistake (e.g. wrong address) then they would be on moral (and legal) thin ice if they attempted to recover those additional costs from the OP.

 

[Puffing Devil]

If this was due to their mistake (e.g. wrong address) then they would be on moral (and legal) thin ice if they attempted to recover those additional costs from the OP.

Any pre-court settlement is a matter for discussion between the defendant and the TOC. There is no need for the TOC to settle before court at all. By taking the matter to court (for whatever reason), additional administration costs will have been incurred - it's up to the TOC to decide what to do with them, or just let the matter progress.

 

[najaB]

Any pre-court settlement is a matter for discussion between the defendant and the TOC. There is no need for the TOC to settle before court at all. By taking the matter to court (for whatever reason), additional administration costs will have been incurred - it's up to the TOC to decide what to do with them, or just let the matter progress.

I don't dispute that, however it's been reported on the forum that Magistrates take a dim view to TOCs offering unreasonable settlements. This could affect the size of any potential fines imposed.

 

[Wazza]

Is it common for TOC’s to not offer an Out of court settlement offer in their first correspondence with you and just take offenders straight to court?

 

[najaB]

Is it common for TOC’s to not offer an Out of court settlement offer in their first correspondence with you and just take offenders straight to court?

In large part it depends on if the TOC is dealing with the case directly (in which case a settlement offer is likely) or if they've passed it to the likes of TIL (who tend to go straight to a Notice of Intent to Prosecute).

 

[Puffing Devil]

I don't dispute that, however it's been reported on the forum that Magistrates take a dim view to TOCs offering unreasonable settlements. This could affect the size of any potential fines imposed.

Not in my experience. Once in court the Magistrates will stick to the guidelines, though some on the bench may challenge the TOC costs rather than nod them through. It would be highly unusual to have any presentation of the pre-court correspondance or offers to settle.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Without naming the start Station,(It had no ticket facilities, nobody selling on the train) I arrived at Manchester Piccadilly and asked for a ticket for Levenshulme. Which I now know is called Short Faring. Absolutley crazy thing to do, I can't even explain why I did it, because I needed a return. Its only the second time I've caught a train in 2017. I still have the ticket from the first time,I bought from start station, because the ticket office is open in the morning.

Just finding it strange that the person with me has received a letter and I haven't.

Noting the debate ranging about hypothetical missing letters and magistrates courts the key thing is you'll end up paying something hopefully from your point of view an out of court settlement. Short Faring is a well worn path to increased revenue! Every excuse under the sun has been tried and doesn't work and every dodge is known. You effectively asked to pay a near 3 figure sum for a journey that costs probably under £10.