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Northern Line extension

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Mojo

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Who cares about those south of the river? :p

As already stated most trains via the West End go to Kennington only at present, so I'd say the real contentious issue is making people from the High Barnet branch change if they want to go via the West End, or making people from the Edgware branch change if they want to go via The City.
 
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DJL

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Surely the most contentious part of this proposal is that Morden trains will only run via Bank, so passengers to and from West End will have to change at Kennington. The Charing Cross branch must be three or four times busier than the City branch in evenings and for most of weekend. Run it as a shuttle and why not an interchange at Vauxhall with the Victoria Line and Southwestern Trains to Waterloo? The section from Morden to Stockwell is already packed to bursting in peak hours and mustn't lose any frequency.

Isn't the whole point of splitting the lines that the frequency can be increased on all parts of both lines?
 

jopsuk

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Yes. By not having to worry about services crossing on points, you can increase frequency
 

edwin_m

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I read somewhere that Camden Town would need a lot more in the way of passenger tunnels if it had to handle the amount of interchange that would take place if the through routeings at the northern end were dropped.
 

Busaholic

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Who cares about those south of the river? :p

As already stated most trains via the West End go to Kennington only at present, so I'd say the real contentious issue is making people from the High Barnet branch change if they want to go via the West End, or making people from the Edgware branch change if they want to go via The City.

Why is it okay to make Morden line passengers change at Kennington but not okay to make Edgware/High Barnet ones at Camden Town? Actually, I think the same principle should apply at both i.e. a peak service should be available to any destination from all termini plus some late evenings.

Surely it is not being proposed that this development at Battersea (if it ever comes off, and let's not forget the enduring association between Battersea Power Station and flying pigs!) should have around 30 tph, or will some trains from Charing Cross branch continue to terminate at Kennington? I know we are in thrall to foreign billionaires but if this built it should be entirely financed by the development company.
 

Deerfold

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Actually, I think the same principle should apply at both i.e. a peak service should be available to any destination from all termini plus some late evenings.

So you're happy for them not to be able to increase the frequencies?
 

DJL

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Why is it okay to make Morden line passengers change at Kennington but not okay to make Edgware/High Barnet ones at Camden Town? Actually, I think the same principle should apply at both i.e. a peak service should be available to any destination from all termini plus some late evenings.

Surely it is not being proposed that this development at Battersea (if it ever comes off, and let's not forget the enduring association between Battersea Power Station and flying pigs!) should have around 30 tph, or will some trains from Charing Cross branch continue to terminate at Kennington? I know we are in thrall to foreign billionaires but if this built it should be entirely financed by the development company.

Don't forget the operational cost to run a train a couple of stops further is small.
Operationally it might be more convenient to run all trains to the end of the line rather than turn some part-way (for timetabling reasons among others)

That said - the turn facilities at Kennington I would guess are probably some of the best on the network so it seems likely that they would retain the use of these to reduce the build costs in Battersea.
That would also have the advantage of providing empty trains for people from Morden to transfer onto...
 

edwin_m

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Why is it okay to make Morden line passengers change at Kennington but not okay to make Edgware/High Barnet ones at Camden Town? Actually, I think the same principle should apply at both i.e. a peak service should be available to any destination from all termini plus some late evenings.

Surely it is not being proposed that this development at Battersea (if it ever comes off, and let's not forget the enduring association between Battersea Power Station and flying pigs!) should have around 30 tph, or will some trains from Charing Cross branch continue to terminate at Kennington? I know we are in thrall to foreign billionaires but if this built it should be entirely financed by the development company.

Some trains have to terminate at Kennington as there are two lines entering it from the north but only one continuing southbound. The Charing Cross branch leads to the turnaround loop so this is the one that gets trains terminated. In the designs I've see this loop continues to exist, with the Battersea extension branching off it, but I don't know if it would be used routinely or just during disruption. Victoria Line changing at Stockwell provides a better option for many journeys between the West End and the Morden line than changing at Kennington anyway.

I've posted above on why splitting the services at Camden Town is not currently proposed.
 

Busaholic

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Don't forget the operational cost to run a train a couple of stops further is small.
Operationally it might be more convenient to run all trains to the end of the line rather than turn some part-way (for timetabling reasons among others)

That said - the turn facilities at Kennington I would guess are probably some of the best on the network so it seems likely that they would retain the use of these to reduce the build costs in Battersea.
That would also have the advantage of providing empty trains for people from Morden to transfer onto...

Point taken,absolutely. Normally I'd entirely agree that the whole service should run through but not in this case, my reasoning being it would cost an extra two or three trains plus staffing costs compared to terminating half the service at Kennington. If ever the Evening Standard decided to have a go at Boris Johnson in the same way they decided to with Ken Livingstone, then I'm sure they could point to the cost of the extension and report only a handful of people arriving per train at Battersea between the peaks.

At a time when long-planned projects for bus,tube,railway,light railway and tram are put on hold once again through budgetary constraints it is ludicrous that B.oris chooses to get into bed with a rich financier at the nation's expense.
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So you're happy for them not to be able to increase the frequencies?

Actually,yes,and I'll explain why. Any slight theoretical increase in service will soon see the additional trains full (Parkinson's law), will not in any case be noticed by the majority of passengers and, in practice, may not be achievable because of the extra 'dwell' time at Camden Town (particularly) and Kennington, even with platform edge doors. Any underground line's capacity is both down to signalling and dwell-time at pinch points e.g. Victoria and Oxford Circus on Victoria Line and anywhere you care to name at the eastern end of the Jubilee Line.

Splitting the Northern Line into two distinct services is a hoary old chestnut (if you can have such a thing!) and probably quite unacceptable politically, especially with the chattering classes ensconced in Belsize Park and Kentish Town. I can't believe any Mayor would allow it, even if it ever got as far as his desk.

As an example of how many times this subject has cropped up and been rejected over the years, in 1971 I was a Traffic Management trainee with London Transport, working for a few months in the Northern and Victoria Lines control room at Cobourg Street, Euston and was for a time charged with looking at issues surrounding the splitting of the lines. In those pre-computer times amassing data was enormously difficult, not to mention haphazard, but my conclusion was, both from the passenger and operational point of view, the risks far outweighed the benefits. The only change that ever came of it, and this is my sole legacy to LT and TfL, was the indicator at the bottom of the escalators at Camden Town to show which platform to go to for the next train via either Bank or Charing Cross: up to that point, passengers were scurrying from one platform to the other in a guessing game.
 

joeykins82

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The post-split Northern line will have high enough service frequencies on both routes and enough cross platform interchanges that this will be a non issue.

Most passengers from Morden-Clapham going to the West End already change at Stockwell for the Victoria line (since it's way quicker to Oxford Circus than sitting on the Northern line to Leicester Sq), and there are already no services via CharingX off-peak during normal service.

The rebuilt Camden Town should have step free access and more routes between the two northbound and the two southbound platforms.

If you tell people "we're splitting the lines but giving you Victoria line frequencies" I suspect they'll jump for joy and ask why it's taken so long.
 

simple simon

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Busaholic, as a user of Camden Town I thank you for that information at the foot of the escalators.

Joeykins82, I think that people will ask why its taken so long when the Northern Line finally has trains which accelerate and travel as fast as the Victoria Line.

(OK, sharp curves etc mean that its not possible to travel at those speeds everywhere, but certainly now that the signals have been replaced so it ought to be possible on most straighter sections of the line. One place where trains always did travel at a decent speed was southbound from High Barnet, its ages since I was that way but bet that this will end up being slowed rather than accelerated.)

btw, I saw somewhere that its not possible to build more of the existing trains. Does anyone know why not?

Simon
 
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Busaholic

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Busaholic, as a user of Camden Town I thank you for that information at the foot of the escalators.

Joeykins82, I think that people will ask why its taken so long when the Northern Line finally has trains which accelerate and travel as fast as the Victoria Line.

(OK, sharp curves etc mean that its not possible to travel at those speeds everywhere, but certainly now that the signals have been replaced so it ought to be possible on most straighter sections of the line. One place where trains always did travel at a decent speed was southbound from High Barnet, its ages since I was that way but bet that this will end up being slowed rather than accelerated.)

btw, I saw somewhere that its not possible to build more of the existing trains. Does anyone know why not?

Simon

Pleased to have been of service all those years ago- I went on to work for Camden Council so was even able to make use of it myself!
 
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